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Old 01-08-2016, 07:10 AM
 
2,491 posts, read 2,678,968 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank DeForrest View Post
You really think no one would work on alternatives until there were "2 barrels left"?
Well wait ....maybe if you let politicians decide for you
Anti- taxpayer subsidy is not anti-technology. In fact I'll say it's the opposite.



Question: Do you think either Solar Electric (PV) or Electric Cars would be as far along in development as they both are, if there were zero subsidizes?
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Old 01-08-2016, 08:00 AM
 
45,201 posts, read 26,421,987 times
Reputation: 24964
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddyline View Post
Question: Do you think either Solar Electric (PV) or Electric Cars would be as far along in development as they both are, if there were zero subsidizes?
Or maybe further along or a technology entirely different that has been crowded out by government favoritism (subsidies).
You can't measure the unseen.
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Old 01-08-2016, 08:05 AM
 
34,619 posts, read 21,601,431 times
Reputation: 22232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddyline View Post
Question: Do you think either Solar Electric (PV) or Electric Cars would be as far along in development as they both are, if there were zero subsidizes?
So, are you asking that if people like myself weren't forced to pay for solar technology, would it be as advanced as it is now?

That's hard to say.

If a product is accepted because the costs are artificially low enough to make them commercially viable, the people producing them might not push hard enough to make them good enough for commercial use at their actual value.
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Old 01-08-2016, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Portland, OR
9,855 posts, read 11,926,125 times
Reputation: 10028
Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
So, are you asking that if people like myself weren't forced to pay for solar technology, would it be as advanced as it is now?

That's hard to say.

If a product is accepted because the costs are artificially low enough to make them commercially viable, the people producing them might not push hard enough to make them good enough for commercial use at their actual value.
Oil companies receive subsidies and incentives. Combined, American oil companies made over $11B in profit in just the first quarter of last year. Notwithstanding this they receive something like $2B in incentives from American taxpayers to keep them going.

Just about every application of rare earth materials, carbon fiber composites and electronics has been researched, and more to the point, patented, by oil companies. Their lawyers and patent attorneys scan the internet and trade journals 24/7 looking for start-ups to pirate. If they can't get them on a patent violation they just make them an offer they can't refuse.

Bottom line. Innovation in this country crawls at a snails pace. A decade from now things wont look all that different from right now. That's too bad because in another decade... ... let me put it this way... the Deep Water Horizon blowout... the oil that was lost.. America would have used that amount of oil in less than one DAY!

But go ahead. Tell me about what electric cars are ready for or what they are not ready for. When the penny drops it won't matter.
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Old 01-08-2016, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
9,701 posts, read 5,110,249 times
Reputation: 4270
Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
So, are you asking that if people like myself weren't forced to pay for solar technology, would it be as advanced as it is now?

That's hard to say.

If a product is accepted because the costs are artificially low enough to make them commercially viable, the people producing them might not push hard enough to make them good enough for commercial use at their actual value.
What does that even mean?

How has the US gov't subsidizing... solar panels made the companies researching & developing them "not push hard enough to make them good enough for commercial use at their actual value?"
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Old 01-08-2016, 01:03 PM
 
34,619 posts, read 21,601,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Oil companies receive subsidies and incentives. Combined, American oil companies made over $11B in profit in just the first quarter of last year. Notwithstanding this they receive something like $2B in incentives from American taxpayers to keep them going.
Are they receiving tax breaks or are they actually receiving cash?

BTW, I'm in favor of having a flat tax rate for businesses. We could say that every business pays 20% in taxes (as just an example) and they get no breaks at all. Would you support such a plan?
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Old 01-08-2016, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Portland, OR
9,855 posts, read 11,926,125 times
Reputation: 10028
Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
Are they receiving tax breaks or are they actually receiving cash?

BTW, I'm in favor of having a flat tax rate for businesses. We could say that every business pays 20% in taxes (as just an example) and they get no breaks at all. Would you support such a plan?
I don't know or care if its tax breaks or cash, its probably a bit of both... do oil companies in anyway seem to you like an industry in need of incentives or subsidy??!! And no, we don't have a flat tax on the citizenry for a reason. We are not all equal. Neither are businesses. "From each, according to their abilities, to each, according to their need(s)."
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Old 01-08-2016, 01:37 PM
 
14,292 posts, read 9,674,750 times
Reputation: 4254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddyline View Post
Question: Do you think either Solar Electric (PV) or Electric Cars would be as far along in development as they both are, if there were zero subsidizes?
Funding research is one thing, but forcing taxpayers to hand out $7,500 to other citizens to buy a Chevy Volt is crony corporatism. Especially when GM received a $45 billion tax break, coming out of their bankruptcy.
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Old 01-08-2016, 01:44 PM
 
14,292 posts, read 9,674,750 times
Reputation: 4254
Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
Are they receiving tax breaks or are they actually receiving cash?

BTW, I'm in favor of having a flat tax rate for businesses. We could say that every business pays 20% in taxes (as just an example) and they get no breaks at all. Would you support such a plan?
He's probably referring to the percentage depletion allowance that independent oil, gas and mining companies can claim on their taxes to offset the huge costs they incur investing in drilling and mining operations.

Percentage Depletion Allowance: Far from being a “loophole,” the percentage depletion allowance is simply an acknowledgement of economic and accounting reality—and a lukewarm one at that. For example, consider a firm that takes in $1 million in revenues over the course of a year, while paying out $700,000 in wages and other out-of-pocket expenses. Sounds like the firm made a profit, or net income, of $300,000, right?

Not so fast. What if you further learn that the firm’s production activities use a $1 million machine that has to replaced every 5 years? Now we have to worry about depreciation. Disregarding the time-value of money, the firm’s accountants have to set aside $200,000 each year to reflect the using up, or wearing out, of the machine. So what appeared to be $300,000 in net income is actually more like $100,000.
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Old 01-08-2016, 02:41 PM
 
34,619 posts, read 21,601,431 times
Reputation: 22232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
I don't know or care if its tax breaks or cash, its probably a bit of both... do oil companies in anyway seem to you like an industry in need of incentives or subsidy??!! And no, we don't have a flat tax on the citizenry for a reason. We are not all equal. Neither are businesses. "From each, according to their abilities, to each, according to their need(s)."
So, you don't know whether the are tax breaks or cash and then you say that you don't want all companies taxed the same, which would mean tax breaks. You're kind of all over the place, aren't you?

It sounds like you want tax breaks for companies you like and no tax breaks for companies you do not.
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