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Old 02-29-2016, 09:57 PM
 
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OP...this just results in massive warfare as everyone fights the one guy.

There are lots of solutions to the ME. Almost all of them revolve around crimes against humanity.
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Old 02-29-2016, 10:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by greywar View Post
OP...this just results in massive warfare as everyone fights the one guy.

There are lots of solutions to the ME. Almost all of them revolve around crimes against humanity.
So how did Saddam maintains order and peace?

How are you gonna affect crimes against humanity if you do not control the leaders?
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Old 02-29-2016, 10:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Vacanegro View Post
That is the hard part but unquestionably our recent influence has not yielded positive results.

Perhaps we should limit our activities more to promoting peace and less to arming favored strongmen/rulers.
Because we always had flawed strategies.

There is only one real strategy. The one I outlined in this OP.

Which has not been done to my knowledge.
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Old 02-29-2016, 10:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Medellin Paisa View Post
So how did Saddam maintains order and peace?

How are you gonna affect crimes against humanity if you do not control the leaders?
Well it helped that he committed crimes against humanity now doesn't it? I'm saying....things like that are how you can control it. I was mostly thinking more of the glow in the dark variety.

But do note, Saddam had a lot of people fighting him pretty regularly. Expand that to the entire ME and you'd have a nightmare show of epic proportions.
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Old 02-29-2016, 10:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Well it helped that he committed crimes against humanity now doesn't it? I'm saying....things like that are how you can control it. I was mostly thinking more of the glow in the dark variety.

But do note, Saddam had a lot of people fighting him pretty regularly. Expand that to the entire ME and you'd have a nightmare show of epic proportions.
You are assuming you must oppress innocent people to maintain order.

You only need to be ruthless to government detractors and criminals.
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Old 02-29-2016, 10:55 PM
 
34,258 posts, read 19,233,697 times
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Originally Posted by Medellin Paisa View Post
You are assuming you must oppress innocent people to maintain order.

You only need to be ruthless to government detractors and criminals.
LOL. First off, its never that neat and tidy. second, Lets say we kill your mom because we say she was being bad in some ways. How do you feel? Scared, or angry? Yeah....we need to off you too. And guess what? You're innocent. Thats how that would work.

Fun fact, my handle is based upon the idea that wars are rarely black and white, and that they have a cost. sometimes its worth it, sometimes not. It-like so much in life-is grey.

Until you are willing to use sufficient force, using force is a losing proposition. Resolving the ME situation requires more force then can be accomplished without committing crimes against humanity. Until someone does that, or some other method is found that changes everything the ME will continue to be a mess.
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Old 02-29-2016, 11:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Medellin Paisa View Post
For a long period being the key word.

Europe has had relative peace. ME till this day has never had true peace.

Even in the days you mentioned I am sure the Shias and Sunnis hated each other.
Okay then why don't you research all the major Sunni vs. Shiite wars and get back to me. Truth is that for a long period there wasn't much Sunni/Shiite conflict in terms of open warfare, it's a recent product of the Saudis and Iranians fighting for influence more than anything else at this point.

Europe didn't have "relative peace" until post-World War II.
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Old 02-29-2016, 11:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by greywar View Post
LOL. First off, its never that neat and tidy. second, Lets say we kill your mom because we say she was being bad in some ways. How do you feel? Scared, or angry? Yeah....we need to off you too. And guess what? You're innocent. Thats how that would work.

Fun fact, my handle is based upon the idea that wars are rarely black and white, and that they have a cost. sometimes its worth it, sometimes not. It-like so much in life-is grey.

Until you are willing to use sufficient force, using force is a losing proposition. Resolving the ME situation requires more force then can be accomplished without committing crimes against humanity. Until someone does that, or some other method is found that changes everything the ME will continue to be a mess.
But it is. That kind of defeatest attitude and lack of balls has brought us to where we are now.

As for your scenario, where to begin.

I think you forgot the part about having to ensure basic human rights and liberties. There will be no death sentence for allege practices. You must go to court and be found guilty. Also, death sentence will only be allowed for murders and drug dealers. There will be watch dogs to ensure nothing fishy goes on. Even in Saudi Arabia, they can not cover up their foul practices. There is just no one to punish them and force them to act a certain way.

You have to let the local ruler use force to maintain order. Hence the whole point of picking the strongest group or leader head. Give him the ultimatum, you can be installed into power and aided in keeping it, you just have to follow certain rules. The moment you break those rules you will be killed or jailed. All the power, money, and control gone in the blink of an eye.

Then let him use what ever means he wants to punish government detractors / criminals. HE just cant cross the line into harming innocent people.

I gaurantee you if Sadaam Husien had to do it over again, he would have complied to the US in order to keep his cushy lifestyle.
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Old 02-29-2016, 11:58 PM
 
34,258 posts, read 19,233,697 times
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Originally Posted by CanuckInPortland View Post
Okay then why don't you research all the major Sunni vs. Shiite wars and get back to me. Truth is that for a long period there wasn't much Sunni/Shiite conflict in terms of open warfare, it's a recent product of the Saudis and Iranians fighting for influence more than anything else at this point.

Europe didn't have "relative peace" until post-World War II.
Go here:
Battles | Public Interface | nodegoat

Use the tool to watch conflicts emerge over time. Take a close look at where the conflicts are occurring. Those folks have ALWAYS been fighting.

Data is beautiful.
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Old 03-01-2016, 12:00 AM
 
228 posts, read 111,600 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Go here:
Battles | Public Interface | nodegoat

Use the tool to watch conflicts emerge over time. Take a close look at where the conflicts are occurring. Those folks have ALWAYS been fighting.

Data is beautiful.
Yea the ME has never had true peace. Always been fighting some how or another. You have two religious secs that hate each other.
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