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In simple terms, The United States is not a Christian country, has never been a Christian country, and the founders did not intend for it to be a Christian country. They set the Constitution so we would not be controlled by any religion. They had seen what it was like to have a state religion and did not want that here.
First, the United States was most-certainly a Christian country. The founders believed that without religion, there could be no virtue, and without virtue, our Republic could not last. Now, that doesn't mean that they wanted America to be a Christian theocracy, or that they believed only Christians could be virtuous. But they tended to believe that religion(or at least, a belief in god) should be encouraged and supported.
"Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports." - George Washington
"History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion, from its usefulness to the public; the advantage of a religious character among private persons; the mischiefs of superstition, and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." - Benjamin Franklin
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath?" - Thomas Jefferson
As for the Constitution. Understand, the Constitution was not a prohibition on the states. The founders didn't want the Federal government establishing a church, but there was no such limitation on the states.
Basically, the separation of Church and State is complicated. Its primary intention was to prevent the government from persecuting one sect or another. But, it is quite obvious that religious sentiment was the guiding force for our government, and its laws and practices, over its history.
Embracing the Jewish community was very progressive for its day, Dark. I have zero doubts that the founding fathers would protect the civil liberties of Muslim Americans today. They would not favor religious based immigration quotas. America was not designed to be a "Christian" nation or as historical revisionist now say "Judaeo Christian" nation. It was established as a religious neutral nation.
Our values can best be summed up as freedom, reason and tolerance. Any religious values that don't conflict with these are welcome too.
I personally never thought this is what our founding fathers wanted to accomplish.......how did this even come about? I don't believe we as Christians are built upon Judaism, we were built upon Jesus Christ, America was built by some godly men, so how does a nation become Judeo Christian? All one has to do is look at Judaism and Christianity, what Jews do, Christians do the opposite.......
The problem I see with Christians claiming America to be Christian, which Christians are we following.......Mormons, Catholics, Southern Baptist, Evangelicals.........how many of these churches have added books to the Holy Bible? I think we were to take God into consideration when taking care of the Earth, not teaching poor people to not feed themselves.
And this does what to prove that God is the source of morals?
Morality comes from reason. There's also biological factors. It makes sense that we wouldn't want to kill people. There's a reasoned argument rooted in survival. It's why every society on Earth has laws against murder. The only thing with that is that every society has a slightly different definition of murder, but the underlying theme is 'unwarranted killing.' Some societies seem to say just about anything outside of self defense is murder. Some include death as a punishment by the state, and that's it. Some say if they're homosexual or a apostate.
The interesting theme is the progress seems to go in a single direction. There's variation and of shoots, but Western Europe is quite a lot more advanced than most other places; highly secular and post industrial, making great strives in the fields of science. Most places in Europe don't even allow the death penalty. To contrast, theocracies like Saudi Arabia and Iran will sentence people to death for having consensual sex with a man.
There are objective moral truths rooted in reason. Among them are things like murder. There are culturally specific concepts of morality, such as the appropriate way to greet others or specific sorts of property laws. But things like murder are objectively wrong. And one does not need to look towards supernatural beings to comprehend that. Especially when the often chosen one seems to have a contradictory moral compass than the one we are expected to follow.
Your entire worldview, is based on a multitude of assumptions. What exactly is an "unwarranted killing?"
If I kill a pedophile, is that unwarranted? Says who? What should the legal age of consent be? Says who?
Morality, if not rooted in revelation from god, is based only on what is considered to be "for the good of society", by those members of society who have the power to make such judgements and proclamations.
Now, it would be impossible for a society to even exist, if it didn't prohibit murder among its own citizens, except insofar as such a murder was sanctioned by the state(IE death penalty). But by no means does that same principle apply to those who fall outside its authority. To commit murder(as in the case of war), or to rape, or rob, or pillage against "others", has often been esteemed as a virtue in many cultures.
And under the circumstances of their time, it was perfectly reasonable on their part to adopt those values. In the same way that cannibalism was reasonable under certain circumstances. Or that polygamy can even be reasonable under certain circumstances, but not under others.
At one time I also believed that morality could be defined purely through reason. But I realize now that such an assumption was a mistake. A dangerous mistake.
I personally never thought this is what our founding fathers wanted to accomplish.......how did this even come about? I don't believe we as Christians are built upon Judaism, we were built upon Jesus Christ, America was built by some godly men, so how does a nation become Judeo Christian? All one has to do is look at Judaism and Christianity, what Jews do, Christians do the opposite.......
Actually that wasn't really true until Constantine and the Council of Nicea.
Christians initially WERE Jews. Many of the Jewish customs were practiced by the early church.
One big stumbling block for early Jewish Christians was their desire to have gentile believers adhere to Jewish customs and laws. THIS is what Paul railed against so many times in his epistles.
When Constantine came along he basically rid the church of anything tied to Judaism which, IMO, was poor judgement.
Make no mistake, we do not "do the opposite". We share a common bond and are similar in many ways.
I'm not religious and abhor the state as well as materialism.
I'm actually not religious necessarily, depending on how you define religious. Though I am certainly no atheist. I believe that there has to be more to this life than this physical world. The very existence of life is illogical. And for life, and its seemingly infinite improbability and complexity(especially "consciousness"), to be utterly meaningless, just seems absurd.
With that said, I don't really know what I believe. The world seems broken, and unfixable, and I'm not entirely sure what purpose there is for its existence, and whether I should care enough to bother myself in doing anything.
With that said, I do despise atheism, only because the worldview of the atheist, is bound-up completely in the material world.
To the atheist, this life is all there is. And thus, the goal is to make this life as good as you can make it(what is good?).
From that seemingly innocuous idea, comes slavery, decadence, and ruin, which they call "progress".
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
What is to say God doesn't exist in the way some men believe He doesn't?
IOW, no one really knows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
What message is being sent by the people who say religion should not exist, aren't these the same kind of people who wanted Jesus killed?
Since Christianity didn't exist at the time, what religion were those who wanted Jesus killed saying shouldn't exist? Or was it really people defending their own religion and branding Jesus a false messiah?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
I notice most people are more afraid of the words of Jesus, than they are by the words of God.
Uh, aren't they supposed to be one and the same? What I'm more afraid of is those who claim they're acting according to the words of Jesus who are doing anything but.
What's to say 'god' exists in any of the ways man subjectively believes 'he' does?
You are missing my point.
If god exists, then morality is objective. If god doesn't exist, then morality is subjective.
What I really mean is, if there is no god, then morality is completely made-up. At best, morality becomes merely what the majority say it is. And at worst, morality is merely what those in power say it is.
But, as most people know, "You cannot legislate morality".
Now, that doesn't mean you cannot have laws which enforce morality, but laws cannot create morality. And attempts at creating morality arbitrarily, don't work.
Basically, without a "moral consensus" built on a "fixed body of moral laws" handed down from god himself; Morality has no foundation on which to stand. You end up with moral-relativism/subjectivism, which leads to moral absurdities.
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