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At least in ice hockey, the answer would be yes, there would an advantage. In my life, I've had the advantage to play hockey with several D1 men's hockey guys and a few NHL guys. I've known women who were some of the best skaters I've ever seen and they would not be able to keep up with those guys - because of size. Know why you don't see short guys in the NHL? Same reason you don't see short guys in the NBA. There's an advantage in size in those sports. Just the way it is.
Look, there's already too few scholarships (and teams) for women in collegiate sports. Shoot, back in my day, we were finally just getting around to enjoying some sense of parity in our collegiate programs. As you noted, there's very few FtM transgender collegiate athletes but several MfF ones. Why? Because there's an advantage for those MtF athletes. So, we get to see yet another thing to compete against in women's sports when it's hard enough for women already to get proper funding and recognition from these schools. Great.
I know all about collegiate sports. I was a Div 1 Baseball Coach for 19 yrs, and an Assoc Athletic Director for 4 years. Now retired and an ally to the LGBT community I advocate for inclusion in sports. I am not a medical specialist in hormone therapy for trans females, but will trust what most who are say. That being after being on hormones for a certain period there is no advantage for a trans female over a female, which is the reason why the NCAA and IOC adopted their policies. When the time comes and the experts are proven wrong the policies can be changed.
By the way I have several friends that are insiders in the NHL, including 2 executives, one former and one current player and they support trans rights. In general the NHL has by far shown the largest support for LGBT rights of the four major sports.
I know all about collegiate sports. I was a Div 1 Baseball Coach for 19 yrs, and an Assoc Athletic Director for 4 years. Now retired and an ally to the LGBT community I advocate for inclusion in sports. I am not a medical specialist in hormone therapy for trans females, but will trust what most who are say. That being after being on hormones for a certain period there is no advantage for a trans female over a female, which is the reason why the NCAA and IOC adopted their policies. When the time comes and the experts are proven wrong the policies can be changed.
By the way I have several friends that are insiders in the NHL, including 2 executives, one former and one current player and they support trans rights. In general the NHL has by far shown the largest support for LGBT rights of the four major sports.
I think you're assuming a position I do not have. I'm just saying from a former female athlete's perspective what it was like playing a sport with a MtF transgender. There was an advantage. Doesn't matter if you agree or not - plain fact of the matter - there was. Frankly, whatever the NCAA says is what's going to be no matter what anyway. Always been that way, always will be that way. Maybe since these organizations (collegiate, pro, and international) are so supportive of deciding who can play in women's sports, they will spend an equal amount of energy and time ensuring we have the same scholarships and opportunities as well. Our sports programs have come a long way but they aren't there yet, by any stretch. As a former D1 coach, you know the lengths schools will go to in order to try and get around the parity rules of Title IX. So, I'm sure you're not unfamiliar with what I'm talking about.
Could boys who just miss the cut for a collegiate scholarship, suddenly self-identify as a girl, and then get a scholarship as a girl athlete??
On a bigger level, does this bring into question the title IX rulings on college sports?
Will biologically male athletes playing men's sports who gender identify as women count towards women's participation and women's scholarship counts?
That being after being on hormones for a certain period there is no advantage for a trans female over a female, which is the reason why the NCAA and IOC adopted their policies. When the time comes and the experts are proven wrong the policies can be changed.
The advantage is going through puberty as a man. You end with a certain level of height and size that the same genetics would never give you going through puberty as a woman. Hormone therapy will undo some of that advantage, but not all of it (particularly height).
Now, you would not have any real advantage over a similar sized woman (part of why transgender athletes fit better into weight class sports), but you would have a huge advantage over other female athletes in general who would simply never attain the same size.
The NCAA and IOC regulations have no impact on federal law though. While the NCAA can say that someone who does not undergo hormone therapy cannot compete in women's sports, the federal government can still say that person counts as a women for the purpose of Title IX. That's where I could see a huge impact and the potential for abuse. When you have two men's sport athletes who are otherwise essentially identical in talent and upside, the one who identifies as female and therefore counts on the other side of the Title IX headcounts is a more desirable athlete to sign to a scholarship.
(And when you have an athlete like that, who both drops the men's scholarship count and raises the women's scholarship count while playing a men's sport, you have essentially taken away two scholarship spots from women's sports.)
I think you're assuming a position I do not have. I'm just saying from a former female athlete's perspective what it was like playing a sport with a MtF transgender. There was an advantage. Doesn't matter if you agree or not - plain fact of the matter - there was. Frankly, whatever the NCAA says is what's going to be no matter what anyway. Always been that way, always will be that way. Maybe since these organizations (collegiate, pro, and international) are so supportive of deciding who can play in women's sports, they will spend an equal amount of energy and time ensuring we have the same scholarships and opportunities as well. Our sports programs have come a long way but they aren't there yet, by any stretch. As a former D1 coach, you know the lengths schools will go to in order to try and get around the parity rules of Title IX. So, I'm sure you're not unfamiliar with what I'm talking about.
I greatly respect your opinion based on the fact you were a college athlete. My one question is was the trans female you are referring to actually on hormones? Was she tested periodically during the period of competition? When and if the time comes where we see a MtF compete in NCAA sports, periodic testing will be mandatory and certain hormone levels have to be maintained. Like I said it will be a trial period, and we did have a trans female MMA fighter that only showed superiority on only one of her bouts which was not enough to prove anything.
Poor Brittney Griner even though not a trans, was tested numerous times during her days at Baylor because some had their doubts. Some doubted her birth records and some accused her of taking PED's and or testosterone.
The advantage is going through puberty as a man. You end with a certain level of height and size that the same genetics would never give you going through puberty as a woman. Hormone therapy will undo some of that advantage, but not all of it (particularly height).
Now, you would not have any real advantage over a similar sized woman (part of why transgender athletes fit better into weight class sports), but you would have a huge advantage over other female athletes in general who would simply never attain the same size.
The NCAA and IOC regulations have no impact on federal law though. While the NCAA can say that someone who does not undergo hormone therapy cannot compete in women's sports, the federal government can still say that person counts as a women for the purpose of Title IX. That's where I could see a huge impact and the potential for abuse. When you have two men's sport athletes who are otherwise essentially identical in talent and upside, the one who identifies as female and therefore counts on the other side of the Title IX headcounts is a more desirable athlete to sign to a scholarship.
(And when you have an athlete like that, who both drops the men's scholarship count and raises the women's scholarship count while playing a men's sport, you have essentially taken away two scholarship spots from women's sports.)
I only jumped into this thread because the OP brought up the possible advantages a Trans female could have playing women's sports.
That aside I do think Obama has over-reached here with his directive. I think that HS Athletic Associations should adapt something similar to the NCAA policy. As far as bathroom, locker-room use in schools I do not agree with putting a student with a penis and a vagina in the same room, however I also believe forcing a trans male or female to use a room based on birth is discrimination. That being said when the situation presents itself, special accommodations should be met. It is really not a major expense, and we need to stop referring to trans individuals based on their birth sex.
I greatly respect your opinion based on the fact you were a college athlete. My one question is was the trans female you are referring to actually on hormones? Was she tested periodically during the period of competition? When and if the time comes where we see a MtF compete in NCAA sports, periodic testing will be mandatory and certain hormone levels have to be maintained. Like I said it will be a trial period, and we did have a trans female MMA fighter that only showed superiority on only one of her bouts which was not enough to prove anything.
Poor Brittney Griner even though not a trans, was tested numerous times during her days at Baylor because some had their doubts. Some doubted her birth records and some accused her of taking PED's and or testosterone.
Played with her on a junior league travel team. At that time, NCAA did not allow transgender athletes so the question of testing or not never came into consideration. Pretty sure IOC didn't either because a lot of us played on U-18 national teams, etc at the time and don't recall any allowances for transgender then either. From what I understand, the league I was playing in with her in at that time just didn't make it an issue one way or another. Let her play and called it a day. But yeah, there was a physical advantage but again, it was junior league which served more as a feeder into decent collegiate programs and national selection camps than anything else. Since she never would be an issue of competition for us in recruitment for camps or D1 programs, I am guessing no one rocked the boat on her playing.
So did she have a distinct size advantage over us and it made a difference? Yes. Can I give you the details of her taking hormones or whatnot at the time? Nope. But I still have a hard time understanding how hormones could change the physical fact that she was flipping 6'4". That's a difficult to impossible thing to overcome physically.
Played with her on a junior league travel team. At that time, NCAA did not allow transgender athletes so the question of testing or not never came into consideration. Pretty sure IOC didn't either because a lot of us played on U-18 national teams, etc at the time and don't recall any allowances for transgender then either. From what I understand, the league I was playing in with her in at that time just didn't make it an issue one way or another. Let her play and called it a day. But yeah, there was a physical advantage but again, it was junior league which served more as a feeder into decent collegiate programs and national selection camps than anything else. Since she never would be an issue of competition for us in recruitment for camps or D1 programs, I am guessing no one rocked the boat on her playing.
So did she have a distinct size advantage over us and it made a difference? Yes. Can I give you the details of her taking hormones or whatnot at the time? Nope. But I still have a hard time understanding how hormones could change the physical fact that she was flipping 6'4". That's a difficult to impossible thing to overcome physically.
So your saying it was the her height that was the advantage and not necessarily the fact that she was born male?
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