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Excellent question in bold, I don't see that it is physically possible to create CO2 based on temperature increases alone.
It is not possible....At the beginning of past ice ages (They were begun by other climate forcings, not by CO2) Once the initial warming began, the oceans began to warm, beginning a feedback loop and releasing stored CO2, warming the earth more and the more it warmed the more CO2 was released from the seas....It is basic physics, cold water holds more CO2 than warm water.
Excellent question in bold, I don't see that it is physically possible to create CO2 based on temperature increases alone.
It's possible.
Every organism in the ocean metabolizes to produce Energy and waste products, one of which is CO2. Virtually every organism does this . Therefore, there is a great deal of dissolved CO2 in the oceans. And as we all know, temperature increases lower the solubility of gases in liquids. Thus, the higher the ocean temps, the less CO2 it can hold at those temps, releasing it into the only place it could go - the atmosphere.
As temps fall, the greater the solubility of those gases are in liquids, thus decreasing the amounts released into the atmosphere.
As water is a wonderful heat sink, so too can it act as a "gas sink" or "source", depending on conditions.
Again, this coming from a guy who's taught this crap at the college level for 20+ years.
It is not possible....At the beginning of past ice ages (They were begun by other climate forcings, not by CO2) Once the initial warming began, the oceans began to warm, beginning a feedback loop and releasing stored CO2, warming the earth more and the more it warmed the more CO2 was released from the seas....It is basic physics, cold water holds more CO2 than warm water.
Didn't you just answer the bolded question? "If temp increases come first, where does the CO2 come from?"
From the oceans. It's a perfectly reasonable suggestion. And as you said... "basic physics".
So, what's the problem with that particular part of his theory?
Every organism in the ocean metabolizes to produce Energy and waste products, one of which is CO2. Virtually every organism does this . Therefore, there is a great deal of dissolved CO2 in the oceans. And as we all know, temperature increases lower the solubility of gases in liquids. Thus, the higher the ocean temps, the less CO2 it can hold at those temps, releasing it into the only place it could go - the atmosphere.
As temps fall, the greater the solubility of those gases are in liquids, thus decreasing the amounts released into the atmosphere.
As water is a wonderful heat sink, so too can it act as a "gas sink" or "source", depending on conditions.
Again, this coming from a guy who's taught this crap at the college level for 20+ years.
Are you serious? CO2 released by heating the oceans is not creating it....It is merely releasing stored CO2....
It is not possible....At the beginning of past ice ages (They were begun by other climate forcings, not by CO2) Once the initial warming began, the oceans began to warm, beginning a feedback loop and releasing stored CO2, warming the earth more and the more it warmed the more CO2 was released from the seas....It is basic physics, cold water holds more CO2 than warm water.
And of course, this brings up a paradox when it comes to this entire theory. If temperature increases drive out the CO2, and CO2 is what reacts with water to form carbonic acid, which would of course raise the acidity of the oceans (which we know is occurring), then how can the oceans become more acidic through CO2?
It seems a conflict of science to state that increases in the amount of carbon dioxide in the oceans is driving up the acidity of the oceans, but at the same time increases in ocean temperatures drive out CO2.
See the problem here?
We don't know it all, people. We're still learning.
Are you serious? CO2 released by heating the oceans is not creating it....It is merely releasing stored CO2....
Where in the world in my post did I ever state that CO2 was being created by increasing temperatures? I didn't and you damn well know it. What I said was that the warmer oceans become a source of the increase of CO2 in the atmosphere which is blindingly obvious to anyone who knows basic chemistry.
The hypothesis was that increasing temperatures increases the amount of CO2. It said absolutely nothing about creating new CO2. You even admitted it yourself.
Don't play word games with me. You will lose.
Please don't put words into my mouth.
Last edited by Starman71; 06-01-2016 at 10:51 AM..
And of course, this brings up a paradox when it comes to this entire theory. If temperature increases drive out the CO2, and CO2 is what reacts with water to form carbonic acid, which would of course raise the acidity of the oceans (which we know is occurring), then how can the oceans become more acidic through CO2?
It seems a conflict of science to state that increases in the amount of carbon dioxide in the oceans is driving up the acidity of the oceans, but at the same time increases in ocean temperatures drive out CO2.
See the problem here?
We don't know it all, people. We're still learning.
Thus, the science ISN'T settled. Nowhere near.
The answer to this is very simple...Today the oceans are storing more CO2 than they are releasing. From 2002 till 2011 26% of the CO2 released by the burning of fossil fuels was absorbed by the oceans.
The oceans as a whole have a large capacity for absorbing CO2, but ocean mixing is too slow to have spread this additional CO2 deep into the ocean. As a result, ocean waters deeper than 500 meters have a large but still unrealized capacity to absorb CO2.
As the oceans continue to warm their capacity to absorb CO2 will diminish until they get to the point where they release more than they absorb....When that happens expect rapid warming.
This entire thread is based on a false premise by the OP.... "CO2 does not CAUSE temp increases."
Where in the world in my post did I ever state that CO2 was being created by increasing temperatures? I didn't and you damn well know it. What I said was that the warmer oceans become a source of the increase of CO2 in the atmosphere which is blindingly obvious to anyone who knows basic chemistry.
The hypothesis was that increasing temperatures increases the amount of CO2. It said absolutely nothing about creating new CO2. You even admitted it yourself.
Don't play word games with me. You will lose.
Please don't put words into my mouth.
Perhaps you should review your post where you agreed with another poster that it is possible to "create" CO2 by temperature increase alone. If that was not your intention, then thanks for clearing it up...
The answer to this is very simple...Today the oceans are storing more CO2 than they are releasing. From 2002 till 2011 26% of the CO2 released by the burning of fossil fuels was absorbed by the oceans.
The oceans as a whole have a large capacity for absorbing CO2, but ocean mixing is too slow to have spread this additional CO2 deep into the ocean. As a result, ocean waters deeper than 500 meters have a large but still unrealized capacity to absorb CO2.
Therefore this layer has little if any impact on the discussion, I'm sure you'll agree. Except possibly as a medium through which CO2 from ocean vents could possibly travel to get to the upper layers of the ocean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur
As the oceans continue to warm their capacity to absorb CO2 will diminish until they get to the point where they release more than they absorb....When that happens expect rapid warming.
This entire thread is based on a false premise by the OP.... "CO2 does not CAUSE temp increases."
I'm sorry, but this still doesn't explain the paradox of increasing solubility of the CO2 you just described based on increasing amounts from fossil fuels and the contradiction of increased ocean temps and the decreased gas solubility that comes along with it.
Henry's law states that the partial pressure of a gas over a liquid is directly proportional to its solubility. Therefore, an increase of CO2 in the atmosphere would increase its solubility in the water. If Temperature remains constant. It hasn't, and we all know that it's been increasing. And if you compare the amount of CO2 increase over the years versus the increase in the temperature of the oceans, then the increasing ocean temperature would far outweigh that miniscule CO2 increase. Thus Henry's law would play very little - if any - impact on increased acidity of the oceans.
I would like to see a very specific study that show just how scientists determined the increase in ocean CO2 was from fossil fuels and not other sources, like undiscovered thermal vents in the ocean floors.
And believe it or not, I'm not actually defending the OP's position. I actually think its probably wrong. I'm only defending the other poster's idea that the increase of temps could lead to increases in CO2, as the ocean is a wonderful source thereof.
Last edited by Starman71; 06-01-2016 at 11:46 AM..
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