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Old 06-06-2016, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Austin
12,041 posts, read 6,878,278 times
Reputation: 13307

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy jeff View Post
[snip] For now I think the opposition is more out of ignorance, rather then giving it a try and seeing what happens.
I think schools that allow males to compete in female athletic competitions are doing so out of political correctness and being very unfair to female athletes who deserve to have an unencumbered place on the athletic field. A place women worked very hard to get for decades.

Last edited by texan2yankee; 06-06-2016 at 12:18 PM..
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Old 06-06-2016, 11:37 AM
 
Location: NY
12,263 posts, read 9,412,569 times
Reputation: 8028
Quote:
Originally Posted by texan2yankee View Post
A place women worked very hard to get for decades.
Isn't that funny? Now liberals are working their hardest to take it away from them.
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Old 06-06-2016, 12:42 PM
 
66,240 posts, read 30,153,135 times
Reputation: 8607
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy jeff View Post
No I do not deny that, but when a man is on hormone therapy for a period of time there are changes, according to the experts.
Do the changes reduce his lung capacity to that of a female?

Reduce his larger bone structure to that of a female?

Reduce his higher bone density to that of a female?

Reduce his lean muscle mass and increase his body fat percentage to that of a female?

I've seen no scientific evidence that indicates any of the above happens.
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Old 06-06-2016, 12:51 PM
 
66,240 posts, read 30,153,135 times
Reputation: 8607
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockside View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by texan2yankee View Post
I think schools that allow males to compete in female athletic competitions are doing so out of political correctness and being very unfair to female athletes who deserve to have an unencumbered place on the athletic field. A place women worked very hard to get for decades.
Isn't that funny? Now liberals are working their hardest to take it away from them.
Time for girl/women athletes and those who support them to fight back and sue under Title IX.

The scientific evidence is that males and females are physiologically different, a difference that gives MTF transgenders a distinct advantage in athletic competition.

Exactly why some Soviet Bloc competitors were disqualified in past Olympic competitions.
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Old 06-06-2016, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,006 posts, read 4,177,578 times
Reputation: 3016
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyB View Post
Those times aren't very good for a top sprinter. I don't think the girls have anything to fear.
Couldn't disagree more. This "girl" wouldn't have been very competitive as a boy, but as a girl, "she" is doing very well. This is just one case. As this trends grows in size, it won't be long before all women's world records and Olympic medals will go to transgenders. At present there are too few of them and their acceptance is too tentative and new. I find it very curious that the first transgender in Alaskan history to compete did as well as "she" did.

Consider world records for a moment. Every woman world record holder could outrun anybody on this forum (unless some of you are Olympians getting ready to compete this summer) but against the best male athletes in the world they would get completely outclassed. Just take the top 23 best times for men and women at 200 meters. All of the top 23 men's times are under 20 seconds. No woman has ever run the 200 in under 21 seconds. That's a huge difference. Practically on different planets. That is precisely why men's and women's competition is separate to begin with. Of course, the greater the distance, the greater the time advantage for men in all track and field events.

World Records:
Men: 200 m 19.19
Women: 200 m 21.34

Men: 400 m 43.18
Women: 400 m 47.6

Men: 800 m 01:40.9
Women: 800 m 01:53.3

Men: 1,000 m 02:12.0
Women: 1,000 m 02:29.0

Men: 1,500 m 03:26.0
Women: 1,500 m 03:50.5

Men: 1 mi. 03:43.1
Women: 1 mi. 04:12.6

Men: 2,000 m 04:44.8
Women: 2,000 m 05:25.4

Men: 3,000 m 07:20.7
Women: 3,000 m 08:06.1

Men: 5,000 m 12:37.4
Women:5,000 m 14:11.2

Men: 10,000 m 26:17.5
Women: 10,000 m 29:31.8

Men: 400 m Hurdles 46.78
Women: 400 m Hurdles 52.34
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Old 06-06-2016, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,006 posts, read 4,177,578 times
Reputation: 3016
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Do the changes reduce his lung capacity to that of a female?

Reduce his larger bone structure to that of a female?

Reduce his higher bone density to that of a female?

Reduce his lean muscle mass and increase his body fat percentage to that of a female?

I've seen no scientific evidence that indicates any of the above happens.
Yep, that's precisely why I will always object to this nonsense. Can't rep you again yet.
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Old 06-06-2016, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Out West
22,576 posts, read 16,717,234 times
Reputation: 26123
Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon View Post
How dare you insult her accomplishments. She finished 3rd in her entire state in the girls 200 meter dash, and 5th in the entire state for the girls 100 meter dash.

How is that not fast?
It's actually not, it's average. My 100m and 200m were just about the same as his. The people who went to state were a good one second less than me or this guy running on the girls' team.

Don't let that stand as some sort of proof that there's no advantage...he's just a crappy runner for a guy. I may not have ever qualified for state with my 12. something 100m, but that doesn't mean I couldn't sprint faster than a lot of guys who weren't in track. Chances are, it's a smaller school so the competition isn't as hard - which means when you aren't pushed, you don't tend to get as fast as others. Larger schools also have better equipment, often better coaching, better facilities that does indeed have an advantage over smaller schools that just have a track with a field in the middle, some long stretches of road to run, (even if you're a sprinter), and some batons for relays.
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Old 06-06-2016, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Out West
22,576 posts, read 16,717,234 times
Reputation: 26123
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Couldn't disagree more. This "girl" wouldn't have been very competitive as a boy, but as a girl, "she" is doing very well. This is just one case. As this trends grows in size, it won't be long before all women's world records and Olympic medals will go to transgenders. At present there are too few of them and their acceptance is too tentative and new. I find it very curious that the first transgender in Alaskan history to compete did as well as "she" did.

Consider world records for a moment. Every woman world record holder could outrun anybody on this forum (unless some of you are Olympians getting ready to compete this summer) but against the best male athletes in the world they would get completely outclassed. Just take the top 23 best times for men and women at 200 meters. All of the top 23 men's times are under 20 seconds. No woman has ever run the 200 in under 21 seconds. That's a huge difference. Practically on different planets. That is precisely why men's and women's competition is separate to begin with. Of course, the greater the distance, the greater the time advantage for men in all track and field events.

World Records:
Men: 200 m 19.19
Women: 200 m 21.34

Men: 400 m 43.18
Women: 400 m 47.6

Men: 800 m 01:40.9
Women: 800 m 01:53.3

Men: 1,000 m 02:12.0
Women: 1,000 m 02:29.0

Men: 1,500 m 03:26.0
Women: 1,500 m 03:50.5

Men: 1 mi. 03:43.1
Women: 1 mi. 04:12.6

Men: 2,000 m 04:44.8
Women: 2,000 m 05:25.4

Men: 3,000 m 07:20.7
Women: 3,000 m 08:06.1

Men: 5,000 m 12:37.4
Women:5,000 m 14:11.2

Men: 10,000 m 26:17.5
Women: 10,000 m 29:31.8

Men: 400 m Hurdles 46.78
Women: 400 m Hurdles 52.34

Again, his times were not that great and would never have qualified him for state where I lived, BUT, you are correct that it does make him an "average" runner on the girls' team. He would never have even MADE the track team on the guys' team with those times. And that is part of the problem, as the article pointed out: This guy beat out a girl that would have otherwise won...whatever the heck it was...ah, this:

Quote:
However, Fairbanks (Alaska) Hutchinson junior Saskia Harrison, whose time of 14.11 seconds in the 100 left her outside the 16-competitor cut for the Class 1A-2A-3A field, took issue with Wangyot’s presence in the event.
Her time is actually bad, but it doesn't matter, this guy took her spot from her.
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Old 06-06-2016, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Out West
22,576 posts, read 16,717,234 times
Reputation: 26123
Quote:
Originally Posted by texan2yankee View Post
In the WP article, the trans woman published an article in The Journal of Sporting Cultures and Identities, which I've never heard of, and her study is not available for review unless you pay for it. Was her research peer reviewed? How many subjects were studied? How long was the study? What is the demographic data of the study subjects? One study, regardless, is not valid for proof of anything in the scientific community. Her personal experience is also not science.

The Guardian article you reference is also not a scientific journal and anecdotal.

If you are going to argue the science that a male athlete on female hormones is the same as a female athlete, and not significantly advantaged in women's competitions, please put forward a reputable source for your argument. Feelings or anecdotal evidence is NOT science.

The overwhelming science shows men are different biologically than women. That fact is not controversial.
Let's not forget the fact that some scientists can be bought. I don't buy it for a second that males who take hormone therapy are suddenly exactly the same as females as far as strengths. There's too much that a pill cannot change.

And the big problem is, the libs and SJWs are trying to act like transgenders are ALL in the process of taking hormones or going to get the big operation when the fact is, all you have to do to be called "transgender" is be a guy who wears women's clothes and call yourself a girl, and the majority of them are doing just that...but then want to be put on girls' sports teams.

Do you think that the high schools have a damn clue about what makes a transgender a transgender, and that a transgender doesn't actually have to do anything other than wear the uniforms for the female team and say, "I'm a girl, too!", and that, as the article stated that I quoted, many of them are actually NOT gay! So you've got guys who are not gay, walking in to female bathrooms, all their parts still attached, you've got guys joining girls/females sports teams with absolutely ZERO changes to their body, and the liberals don't see how this is not stomping on females? War on women? Oh the liberals own this one.
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Old 06-06-2016, 09:49 PM
 
2,110 posts, read 3,845,652 times
Reputation: 2584
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy jeff View Post
No I do not deny that, but when a man is on hormone therapy for a period of time there are changes, according to the experts. I will re-post these links once again.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...816_story.html

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...lete-interview

So do you think the experts are simply incompetent or lying? Do you know more then them? I know I don't.
From your own link:

Quote:
To be clear: This study speaks only to distance running. Trans women who are sprinters may maintain something of an advantage over other female runners in that they tend to carry more muscle mass, potentially allowing for increased speed over short distances. (Whereas extra muscle mass is a disadvantage in distance running.) And since gender transition doesn’t affect height, it would make sense that transgender women would have advantages over other women in sports such as basketball, where size is so important, and disadvantages in sports such as gymnastics, where greater size is an impediment.
There is also no mention of how hormone therapy affects reaction times, hand eye coordination, or how well one adapts to central nervous system training.

Reaction times:
(Reaction Time Differences in Men and Women)
Quote:
After power transformation of the skewed data, a fixed effects ANOVA was used to analyze the effects of sex, race, round and lane position. The lower bounds of the 95, 99 and 99.9% confidence intervals were then calculated and back transformed. The mean fastest reaction time recorded by men was significantly faster than women (p<0.001). At the 99.9% confidence level, neither men nor women can react in 100 ms, but they can react in as little as 109 ms and 121 ms, respectively
Motor skills:
(How Men's Brains Are Wired Differently Than Women's)
Quote:
The findings lend support to the view that males may excel at motor skills, while women may be better at integrating analysis and intuitive thinking. - See more at: How Men's Brains Are Wired Differently Than Women's
In weightlifting, women lift about 70-80% as much as the men (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._weightlifting). Will 1 year of hormone therapy reduce a lifetime of training by that amount? Are there athletes that are willing to go through that if they can't make it on men's team? I don't know.
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