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Old 08-11-2016, 12:17 PM
 
12,928 posts, read 3,282,040 times
Reputation: 1615

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floorist View Post
“We find that permit holders are convicted of misdemeanors and felonies at less than a sixth the rate for police officers,” the report says. “Among police, firearms violations occur at a rate of 16.5 per 100,000 officers. Among permit holders in Florida and Texas, the rate is only 2.4 per 100,000.10. That is just one-seventh of the rate for police officers.”

Firearms violations? Wow, impressive. At least something new to read and consider..., thanks!
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:26 PM
 
12,928 posts, read 3,282,040 times
Reputation: 1615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurn350 View Post
Slight problem: Democrats are usually against the death penalty. People who go around committing murders should get their just due.
An argument against the death penalty that I sometimes tend to agree with is that death is too quick and easy a penalty for some crimes committed, but of course there is the cost issue as well. Also, as long as we're on this cheery subject...

"One of the biggest factors that is reducing support of the death penalty is the recent execution of Clayton Lockett in the state of Oklahoma. On April 29, 2014, Lockett was scheduled to be executed by lethal injection. The execution ran late, because the technician struggled to find a place to insert the IV. A drug to knock Lockett unconscious was administered, and after ten minutes, he was deemed unconscious. After three minutes, he began to have a “violent reaction.” He began seizing, and mumbling incoherently. A journalist who was attending the execution stated, “He looked like he was in pain to me. “How much pain, nobody knows but him.” After examining the IV, it was determined that “the blood vein had collapsed, and the drugs had either absorbed into tissue, leaked out or both,” and the lethal injection had not made if fully into Lockett’s system. 33 minutes after he was administered the lethal injection, his execution was cancelled. Ten minutes later, Lockett suffered a massive heart attack, and was pronounced dead.

While events like these aren’t frequent, they make many Americans concerned about the death penalty. Botched executions are considered “cruel and unusual punishment” by many, and a large percentage of Americans would rather see life imprisonment than risk seeing a fellow human subjected to an experience similar to Lockett’s.

I suppose there are a few of us who grapple with what is "cruel" punishment when it comes to murderers, but also the Religious Right weighs in that death is for God to decide. I tend to be ambivalent all considered...
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
1,899 posts, read 1,216,990 times
Reputation: 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I have ignored nothing. In fact, I have addressed the data in your graph, both directly and with other information, opinion, facts to consider. Yet, I'm the one doing the ignoring? Why don't you ever specifically address those opinions, comments and data that describe Australia's gun control measures as some success rather than "epic failure?"

Also yet again with this comment too, I have made the point that the issue of gun control does not only boil down to gun deaths! Nevertheless, somehow I am called upon to address these sorts of comments over and over as if they are the essential point of focus. Why should I when nothing I seem to explain gets even a nod of understanding?

Why, because I want to at least show I am not ignoring anything!

So, here we go again, with YOUR point of focus...

Is it "300 people murdered" or "300 people murdered and a cost of $550 million?" Really?

How about the actual numbers instead?

"There were 282 victims of homicide in 2007: a 12 percent decrease from 2006 and the lowest number recorded in the past 12 years."

Again, these numbers don't compute for you? Don't even exist?

Australian Institute of Criminology - Victims of violent crime statistics

Another question for you as well, how does the homicide rate compare between Australia and the U.S.?

I'll tell you...

The U.S. (3.9) about 4 times that of Australia (1.0). These statistics are also not shown on your ONE graph...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._homicide_rate

Also BTW, about the "cost" of $550 million. With a small tax hike to help finance the buy-back, this was money paid to gun owners as required by the Australian Constitution, money from government coffers and put back into the Australian economy via the pockets of those gun owners, with approval by most Australians. Not exactly money that went up in smoke! In fact a return of money from the government is considered a win by many people. In this case many Australian gun owners...

Those are the facts plain and simple. Whether that all means "epic failure" to you or something else to others, Australians, why another spin around that circle, right? What I do also recognize as fact is that what the Australians did is not viable for America for a few significant reasons, including a much lower level of gun ownership in Australia to begin with, so I'd say a little too much time focusing on Australia either way. What extra time I have taken has only been to point out that maybe "epic failure" is not entirely fair or correct.
You forgot to include that the rate was dropping BEFORE the $550 million. The rate didn't change, per your own link.

Whoops.

And that's the whole point that you've been ignoring. You look at ONLY gun deaths instead of the big picture. You look ONLY at after, and not before. Your myopic view is the trouble.

But by all means, ignore that the murders were declining before the gun ban too, and it didn't change. This is your problem to reconcile, not mine.
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:51 PM
 
12,928 posts, read 3,282,040 times
Reputation: 1615
Quote:
Originally Posted by numberfive View Post
You forgot to include that the rate was dropping BEFORE the $550 million. The rate didn't change, per your own link.

Whoops.

And that's the whole point that you've been ignoring. You look at ONLY gun deaths instead of the big picture. You look ONLY at after, and not before. Your myopic view is the trouble.

But by all means, ignore that the murders were declining before the gun ban too, and it didn't change. This is your problem to reconcile, not mine.
Wrong again. I am aware the trend was dropping, but what were the Ausies focused upon when they decided on the gun ban? How did that go? "You wrote 300 murders vs 300 murders + $500 million." That's what I would call ignoring the actual numbers, a rate that has actually dropped, not stayed the same. All the rest I have provided, and I'm the one with the "myopic view?" Obviously you have too much ego invested along with your one graph to simply admit that "epic failure" (just like this last comment of yours) is hardly fair, balanced or reasonable. The Ausies seem happy enough anyway, regardless your "epic failure" opinion...

All considered, how about we forget Australia, shall we? Or would you like to waste more time with more nonsense? If so, I've got no more to waste today. Maybe tomorrow, or please something better. Someone!
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:57 PM
 
26,369 posts, read 24,595,612 times
Reputation: 16052
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
There is a good reason there were public hangings. They were not cruel and damn sure were not unusual.
Embarrassment and death on the same day.....
People watched and learned what happens, if they ever lost self control like those hung did.

The public stockade was another good deterrent by embarrassment, that made the bad element leave town soon after release.
your right

and.....

there is no quick fix like everyone so stupidly wants to believe...there are reasons for all this crime...not one reason but many....

we've become a land of lawlessness, anything goes, from texting while driving, to speeding, to doing drugs, to back mouthing a police officer and resisting arrest.

Yesterday a 6 year old little girl was shot and killed on her front porch in Philly.

it isn't the guns...it's the people behind the guns...kids in gangs who have no where else to go, but to join a gang...lack of moral education and respect.

You start imposing gun laws, there will be no stopping...every time there is a mass shooting, it's "oh, lets make new gun laws". And then some more and then some more and more...and now what your doing is creating a very lucrative business for criminals to sell illegal guns...

Common sense tells you that....

Stop having kids in the ghetto...start raising kids to respect the lives and property of others...and start coming down very hard on crime...build more prisons...make crime pay...

there is no quick fix, and there is no 100% full proof fix...however, there are steps adults can start taking to change things...this world of instant gratification has done nothing but creating a stupid society, with a lot of stupid laws that do not solve any problems.
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Old 08-11-2016, 01:01 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
66,701 posts, read 33,961,833 times
Reputation: 14323
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
An argument against the death penalty that I sometimes tend to agree with is that death is too quick and easy a penalty for some crimes committed, but of course there is the cost issue as well. Also, as long as we're on this cheery subject...

There is a good reason, those that Murdered, those that Stole, were hung in the town square, so the public could see.
It actually made everyone think twice about either of those things.
Incarceration with parole? Probation?

Set examples and the mind tends to think a little harder before acting.
There is nothing cruel or unusual about a public hanging.
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Old 08-11-2016, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
1,899 posts, read 1,216,990 times
Reputation: 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Wrong again. I am aware the trend was dropping, but what were the Ausies focused upon when they decided on the gun ban? How did that go? "You wrote 300 murders vs 300 murders + $500 million." That's what I would call ignoring the actual numbers, a rate that has actually dropped, not stayed the same. All the rest I have provided, and I'm the one with the "myopic view?" Obviously you have too much ego invested along with your one graph to simply admit that "epic failure" (just like this last comment of yours) is hardly fair, balanced or reasonable. The Ausies seem happy enough anyway, regardless your "epic failure" opinion...

All considered, how about we forget Australia, shall we? Or would you like to waste more time with more nonsense? If so, I've got no more to waste today. Maybe tomorrow, or please something better. Someone!
The homicide rate didn't change. You have been misinformed. Check your own link.

Remember, the sun doesn't rise because the rooster crows.

And the gun ban didn't make Australia any safer, it just changed how people get murdered. For a $550,000,000 price tag. But hooray I guess?
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Old 08-11-2016, 02:10 PM
 
9,726 posts, read 4,646,510 times
Reputation: 5519
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Funny, even racist comments get more respect and attention...

Again, the truth of the matter is that incarceration rates (for crime) for people of color is just as extraordinarily high as gun ownership and gun homicide rates in America. About 30 percent of the population account for 60 percent of those imprisoned. Why? Not sure we've got the ability to consider these facts and the causes with any thinking that goes much beyond the standard here when all we've got to do is repeat that "guns don't kill, people do," flash the same graph, over and over, and of course, the 2A...
Black people commit more of the crimes than white and are a much smaller percentage of the population, so there should be more blacks in prison.
Oh, blacks are only 13.8% of the population, not 30%.
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Old 08-12-2016, 06:51 AM
 
48,441 posts, read 45,664,836 times
Reputation: 15425
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Funny, even racist comments get more respect and attention...

Again, the truth of the matter is that incarceration rates (for crime) for people of color is just as extraordinarily high as gun ownership and gun homicide rates in America. About 30 percent of the population account for 60 percent of those imprisoned. Why? Not sure we've got the ability to consider these facts and the causes with any thinking that goes much beyond the standard here when all we've got to do is repeat that "guns don't kill, people do," flash the same graph, over and over, and of course, the 2A...
One thing. Whites are more likely to own guns than Blacks, but the murder rate is much lower. Blacks have a smaller share of the population, and are less likely to own guns than Whites. However, Black men contribute to about 50% of this nation's murders, and it's mostly Black men being murder victims.

Something else. Most Blacks are in prison for non-lethal crimes. Black men are also getting locked up for child support discrepancies. There are alot of things you can go to prison for besides murder and rape.

And to clarify, Black men are 6% of the U.S. population. 1/3 of the Black male population is in prison, on probation, or in some for of legal discrepancy. If we are to really break it down, you have about 1/5 of the Black male population contributing to 50% of the U.S. prison population. So, in fact, for the Black population, there is a a higher percentage of Blacks(both male and female) behind bars than legally owning guns. And the murders are being committed by those persons who are basically in and out of prison, perpetual criminals.

If Blacks are less likely to own guns, but more murders are committed by Blacks, then how are guns the problem?
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Old 08-12-2016, 07:45 AM
 
9,726 posts, read 4,646,510 times
Reputation: 5519
It is the gun culture in the black communities and the drug culture. Unless the black community changes the way it raises children, nothing will ever change.
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