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Old 08-09-2016, 09:59 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
12,287 posts, read 9,794,946 times
Reputation: 6509

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kode View Post
First we need a solid analysis of what motivates people to use guns whereas they weren't so strongly inclined 60 years ago. What is their complaint? Figure that out and we have a place to start.
Murder rate has been steadily dropping over the last couple of decades

Murder rate is at 50 year low while guns in circulation is at all time high. Every month gun sales records are broken back to back. Plus concealed carry is over 15 million people nationwide.

Mass Shooting Myth -- U.S. Homicide Rate Hits 51-year Low as Gun Ownership Increased 141%
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Old 08-10-2016, 12:09 AM
 
Location: Santa Monica
36,856 posts, read 17,296,394 times
Reputation: 14459
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting4life View Post
Murder rate has been steadily dropping over the last couple of decades

Murder rate is at 50 year low while guns in circulation is at all time high. Every month gun sales records are broken back to back. Plus concealed carry is over 15 million people nationwide.

Mass Shooting Myth -- U.S. Homicide Rate Hits 51-year Low as Gun Ownership Increased 141%
Murder rate has partly dropped due to better medicine and better policing.

Not arguing your point cuz this fact doesn't make up the difference. And crime, especially gun violence, is way down despite a little bump in the last year or two.
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:05 AM
 
29,410 posts, read 9,604,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floorist View Post
Why would it affect my quality of life? It makes me mad and sad, but crazy people have always killed others. None of us is going to change that and it has nothing to do with guns.

Hard for me to understand this...

The quality of life is affected when we have reason to be "mad and sad." Right? Whether we have the ability to change that or not. The point is that acts of terrorism such as a school mass shooting are not just about the number of people killed, as compared to other sources of death and injury. This is the point that got these comments started in the first place. Though only 14 kids here or 8 there, we as a country feel something profoundly sad when children are killed where they are supposed to be kept safe. Mad as Hell too of course. How we feel about this as compared to the thousands of people killed in freeway accidents every year is different, despite the numbers. That's the point, the simple reality, and why the issue of terrorism committed with a weapon that provides for "mass" killing becomes the focus, draws the political attention it does. That's the point even though I agree getting guns out of the hands of terrorists is little more than wishful thinking, or so it seems...
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:11 AM
 
29,410 posts, read 9,604,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer0101 View Post
The unfortunate truth is that it won't happen because the politically correct portion of the country refuses to hold individuals responsible for their actions.

Example? Meaning?

On the one hand we have people forever going on about the over-reach of government, telling us what to do, incarcerating too many people. On the other hand there are those who want to lock everyone up and throw away the key, while both agendas pose significant collateral problems. Just who are these people that are "politically correct" such that they refuse to "hold individuals responsible for their actions," and just what, exactly, does it take to "hold individuals responsible?" Sounds like another good example of a "faux solution" to me...

Last edited by LearnMe; 08-10-2016 at 11:00 AM..
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:21 AM
 
29,410 posts, read 9,604,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NHartphotog View Post
The reason we have gun deaths in America, is because we have 320 million people. With that number of people, there WILL be incidences of violence that kill multiple people. If guns didn't exist, the attacks would be with knives, bombs, cars/trucks, airplanes, poisons, etc.

When Big Government tries to disarm the citizenry in order to "save" us, we are actually much more in danger. A psychotic attacker with a knife can kill 10 or 20 people--as just happened in Japan--but if a single law-abiding citizen in the crowd was carrying a handgun, the criminal could be stopped before he hurt ANYONE. It should be obvious that the ability to cause harm to others, is not the REASON people cause harm to others. Carrying a gun is no more lethal than driving a car--any driver could drive into a crowd of people if he wanted to. You can't take away the ability of the citizen to cause harm, because there are infinite ways to cause harm. But if we let Big Government take away the ability of the citizen to defend himself (and his family and property), we will ALL be at the mercy of both criminals and politicians--with the latter being far more dangerous.

To some extent correct, but mostly wrong. To consider the numbers correctly, for comparison purposes and to draw the proper conclusion as to causes and/or dynamics, one must look at these numbers on a per capita basis. IOWs, true we are over 300 million Americans that will see many more incidents of violence here than say Norway with just over 5 million, but the number to compare is "per capita." Homicides per 100,000 inhabitants the typical measure. When looking at those numbers and considering which countries have higher rates than America versus those with lower rates, one might easily think we belong among the lower homicide rate countries given our wealth and standard of living, yet...?

Why not?

Whether it is "Big Government" trying to "disarm its citizens" or trying to reduce the homicide rate as most governments should be inclined, a matter of opinion and perspective, but considering and/or comparing each country in these regards is where we are provided some of the better insights as to where homicide rates are high or low and why.
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:37 AM
 
29,410 posts, read 9,604,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by numberfive View Post
Comment 881 addressed 880. Seems like you have some catching up to do.
I'm just trying not to continue "beating a dead horse," not simply repeat the same comments. Better to simply redirect you to the efforts already devoted to those circles, that SHOULD clearly indicate not all indications or opinion are that Australia's gun control is "epic failure." I mean surely I can understand those who want to describe gun control here or there as "epic failure." A term often used of course, and not just with regard to Australia. We all know how those different perspectives tend to determine how we judge facts and opinion, but not to recognize both perspectives as valid to some extent is simply ridiculous. You could not find so very many sources on both sides of this issue if so absolutely clear one way or another. Accordingly, rather than just repeat or stare again at just one graph, there is a good deal more to consider, for those willing, like these facts for example:

"The chances of being murdered by a gun in Australia plunged to 0.15 per 100,000 people in 2014 from 0.54 per 100,000 people in 1996, a decline of 72 percent, a Reuters analysis of Australian Bureau of Statistics figures showed."

Australia data shows gun controls a huge success 20 years after mass shooting | Reuters

Along with all the other opinion, facts and information I have already provided that one would think SHOULD be worthy of consideration, at least that! Or please, something else, something new, please not that one graph again that you must have hanging on your wall above your bed...
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:42 AM
 
29,410 posts, read 9,604,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kode View Post
First we need a solid analysis of what motivates people to use guns whereas they weren't so strongly inclined 60 years ago. What is their complaint? Figure that out and we have a place to start.

Yes, in part, but also what causes people to choose the use of a gun over other weapons as a rule. Why the gun to settle their complaint rather than a knife or bat? There are a good many questions to ask and answer when it comes to the goal of reducing violence in America and/or per capita homicide rates that better reflect what should be expected of an advanced wealthy modern day society.
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:49 AM
 
19,707 posts, read 10,047,505 times
Reputation: 13059
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Yes, in part, but also what causes people to choose the use of a gun over other weapons as a rule. Why the gun to settle their complaint rather than a knife or bat? There are a good many questions to ask and answer when it comes to the goal of reducing violence in America and/or per capita homicide rates that better reflect what should be expected of an advanced wealthy modern day society.
A gun is more convenient and easier, but if one is not available, just like a terrorist they would use something else.
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:50 AM
 
29,410 posts, read 9,604,172 times
Reputation: 3443
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting4life View Post
Murder rate has been steadily dropping over the last couple of decades

Murder rate is at 50 year low while guns in circulation is at all time high. Every month gun sales records are broken back to back. Plus concealed carry is over 15 million people nationwide.

Mass Shooting Myth -- U.S. Homicide Rate Hits 51-year Low as Gun Ownership Increased 141%

Nice there be some positive amidst the negatives, but a couple questions come to mind here...

Murder rate is at 50 year low, good, but is the rate better or worse than other countries we might consider equally advanced socially and economically as America? Is the rate now acceptable in comparison and/or all considered? Also, true that every month gun sale records are broken, but obviously most of these sales are to law-abiding citizens (we all hope), and perhaps what gun control measures in place to keep those guns in the hands of law abiding citizens and not criminals is at least partly helping as well. Either way, that so many Americans buy guns at a rate that well exceeds the homicide rate might be some form of positive, but again..., I think the true measure of success or failure is how we compare to other advanced countries in the world when it comes to this problem and all the others; violence, gun violence, drug abuse, rape, level of education, etc. Trends matter, of course, but ultimately it is about achieving success, much like the athlete may be encouraged by improved performance, but improved performance is not necessarily winning performance, right?
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:55 AM
 
19,707 posts, read 10,047,505 times
Reputation: 13059
This thread outlived the very small amount of usefulness it had long ago.
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