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Old 06-25-2016, 07:15 PM
mm4
 
5,711 posts, read 3,967,294 times
Reputation: 1941

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
And Texas as a state, wasn't even supposed to remain as a single state. Because as part of its admission into the union, it was to be broken up into as many as five separate states.
Its conditions on accepting invitation into the U.S. provided that it is allowed to break itself up into 5 separate states, should it ever want to, in order to increase its representation in Congress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
The land is the same, the economy is the same, the people are the same.
Er, no. In fact, among other differences, Texas is the only state in the contiguous 48 with its own electric grid (called ERCOT), separate from the Eastern and Western Interconnects:

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production...8/nerc_map.jpg

Last edited by mm4; 06-25-2016 at 07:33 PM..
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Old 06-25-2016, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Texas
37,937 posts, read 17,805,641 times
Reputation: 10366
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
And we are judging their action of proposing or supporting secessionism.
No, not we. YOU are falsely grouping and now back pedaling. keep trying.
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Old 06-25-2016, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Texas
37,937 posts, read 17,805,641 times
Reputation: 10366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seacove View Post
Would you like Texas to secede?
If the change is about local control Yes. If it's about replacing Federal tyranny with Texas tyranny then no.
Reasons matter. Not like you'd understand that.
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Old 06-25-2016, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Madison, WI
5,299 posts, read 2,345,580 times
Reputation: 1227
Serious and important question...

You have countries like Spain that have many nations, all unhappy with being lumped under one government. They each want control of their own people and culture, not some group in Madrid making one-size-fits-all rules for all of them.

1. Should they be forced under one government that they don't want making decisions for them? I think any argument saying "yes" would logically mean you support one world government. If they shouldn't be allowed their own government, why should any country be allowed their own government?

2. Should they be allowed to secede? If yes, would that not logically justify any individual or group seceding from their government? If they should be allowed to secede, why shouldn't anyone be allowed to secede if they don't want to be ruled by some other group?

People like to ignore this issue because they don't like either answer, but there's no line of reasoning to justify why countries, as they exist today, is the ideal. It's all so arbitrary.
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Old 06-25-2016, 07:54 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,450 posts, read 24,044,107 times
Reputation: 32778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveshiscountry View Post
No, not we. YOU are falsely grouping and now back pedaling. keep trying.
You seem to think that if you say something that makes it true.
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Old 06-25-2016, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,450 posts, read 24,044,107 times
Reputation: 32778
Quote:
Originally Posted by T0103E View Post
Serious and important question...

You have countries like Spain that have many nations, all unhappy with being lumped under one government. They each want control of their own people and culture, not some group in Madrid making one-size-fits-all rules for all of them.

1. Should they be forced under one government that they don't want making decisions for them? I think any argument saying "yes" would logically mean you support one world government. If they shouldn't be allowed their own government, why should any country be allowed their own government?

2. Should they be allowed to secede? If yes, would that not logically justify any individual or group seceding from their government? If they should be allowed to secede, why shouldn't anyone be allowed to secede if they don't want to be ruled by some other group?

People like to ignore this issue because they don't like either answer, but there's no line of reasoning to justify why countries, as they exist today, is the ideal. It's all so arbitrary.
What's odd is that some of the same people who seriously think Texas should be able to secede, also believe in strong borders with walls, etc.
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Old 06-25-2016, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
7,178 posts, read 4,744,861 times
Reputation: 4851
They've been wanting to leave for a long time. All talk and no action. Hurry up and leave already.
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Old 06-25-2016, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
14,856 posts, read 8,179,887 times
Reputation: 4590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveshiscountry View Post
No the land and economy are not. Texas has a diversified economy compared to Oklahoma. It has a port city. The gulf of Mexico and the amount of oil in Texas compared to Oklahoma is big. ~2011 Texas just under 1 million barrels a day. Oklahoma 150k barrels a day.
You're completely missing my point. There are many states with highly-diversified economies and port cities. The issue is whether Texas is significantly different from the rest of the country to the point that it has a right to self-determination as a unique entity.


Look at it like this; Grab yourself out a map of the United States. Now, there are 50 states in our union, but why are there 50 states? Furthermore, look at the "Western" states. You'll notice how most of them are boxy in appearance. On what basis were those lines drawn?

Were these states the product of "self-determination"? Or were the lines merely arbitrarily drawn by the Congress, based on nothing more than geography?


If you look at Texas' history, you'll realize that almost all of the so-called Texian Army which fought Santa Anna, were not native to Texas. Almost all of them were from either the United States or Europe. They didn't even speak Spanish. At the Alamo, who died? Americans like Davy Crockett, who was from Tennessee. For that matter, Sam Houston was born in Virginia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Alamo

Texas was never a distinct people, and its supposed independence was being supported/financed/organized by the United States in order to sever the land from Mexico, so that America could claim it.

And once America took Texas, it intended to carve it up because of its massive size(and it did somewhat). The only reason it was admitted as a single state, was because it was going to be admitted as a slave-state, and the Northerners didn't want slavery to become suddenly overrepresented in the Senate(they had generally had a policy of admitting only one slave-state alongside one free-state to maintain balance).


The notion that Texas "is a country", or ever was a country, or was ever really intended to be a country, is just a joke. And as I said, 44% of Texans voted for Obama in 2008, so any attempts to secede would most-likely mean nearly half of the state will be opposed.

Now, you can argue that in the Brexit referendum only 52% supported it, but in the case of Britain, they are actually a distinct people, with a distinct language, with a distinct culture, with a distinct ancestry/history from the rest of Europe.

Texas is nothing more than random lines drawn on a map. The panhandle of Oklahoma was part of the original Texas that was annexed by the United States. But are you going to argue that the panhandle of Oklahoma has some sort of right to self-determination?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveshiscountry View Post
Your statement on Southern Mexicans and people from different parts filling up major cities. Why does that mean they are from a different political spectrum? Or did you mean they don't look the same.
They are from a different political spectrum, and they for the most part are not really members of the rest of society, they are a distinct group.

Go to West San Antonio, it is practically Mexico. And the border of Mexico really should be Mexico. And their voting patterns are simply not in line with most of the rest of the state.

I mean, click on this link, look at the map on the right. Do you see?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...in_Texas,_2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveshiscountry View Post
Why not? As long as they received the ability for more local control which would be the theme of secession.
If they wanted more local control, they would secede themselves, why would they want to stay a part of Texas? And that is my entire point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveshiscountry View Post
No a city, or a suburb would not get the choice. I wonder if Putin would get involved?
Putin already has gotten involved. And in the same way Putin snatched Crimea, Obama would snatch whatever he could take as well. And who is going to stop him? Especially if that city/region claims it wants to remain part of the United States.

Putin’s Plot to Get Texas to Secede - POLITICO Magazine

Last edited by Redshadowz; 06-25-2016 at 08:27 PM..
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Old 06-25-2016, 08:18 PM
 
21,422 posts, read 10,507,691 times
Reputation: 14079
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seacove View Post
Hahah, we need to build a wall around Texas and make them pay for it. Stronger borders!



Have you seen anyone demanding Texas stay? Let's put it to a vote. I think Texas would be surprised how many would vote them out.
What gives, Seacove? You have an ex-wife from Texas or what?
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Old 06-25-2016, 08:22 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
78,866 posts, read 46,504,056 times
Reputation: 18520
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seacove View Post
Another embarrassed Texan. Just know we fully support your departure.

Update: An effort to force a floor vote on secession at the ongoing Texas Republican Party convention came up two votes shy in a committee on Friday. This post has been updated.

Texas Republicans barely avoided having to vote on whether Texas should secede from the United States on Friday...the fact we’re even mentioning secession and the Texas GOP convention in the same sentence suggests that the once-fringe movement has become a priority for at least some conservative grass-roots Texans.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...nd-of-serious/



When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,
--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
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