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OK I think irspow has made a pretty strong case, and so far the only "rebuttal" has been something akin to:
"I've done pretty well for myself, so it ain't too bad of a system".
The question begs how would we put into action a shift from the current slavery system to a true bartering service oriented system.
I imagine you would just have to start small. Start a network of like minded individuals who all could provide a different service and/or good, and search out/recruit those who have talents and or skillsets that would benefit your network.
There is no absolute system that will be agreed upon by all. As I stated earlier, I personally believe that a "time" backed "currency" would be most equitable for all involved.
You "invest" an hour, you "earn" an hour. No person could "earn" more than he "invested". No person could "earn" 100 times what they "invested". No person could "hoard" more "time" than they have in their lifetimes. No person would benefit or profit, simply because they were hoarders.
There would be no person who was worth thousands of other people lives. There would be no person who essentially enslaved thousands of other people to serve them for their entire lives.
Every person would have only their own life to invest, and could only earn over their lifetime that which they actually invested themselves.
Even barter is incomprehensible to those who believe in nothing more than exploiting their fellow man as much as they possibly can. Do you think that a doctor, lawyer, banker, etc will suddenly trade value for value to those they feel superior to? They truly believe that their lives are worth scores of other people's lives.
And of course we have those "heirs" and the omnipotent financier class who believe that they should never have to do anything, ever, and to have others be their perpetual slaves to serve them.
But yeah, barter is better, and in my opinion time is most equitable. Notice, no arbitrary redistribution of wealth, monopolies, leverage, would be possible or even beneficial to those who wanted it, under a time currency. No "rich" or "poor", only those who invested no time and those who invested much of their time.
And efficiency and production would still be rewarded in that people would not trade their time with those who were not efficient or productive. Of course those who are predators and exploiters would never agree to such a system of human exchange, their entire privileged world revolves upon enslaving others by leverage over or the ignorance of their victims...
OK I think irspow has made a pretty strong case, and so far the only "rebuttal" has been something akin to:
"I've done pretty well for myself, so it ain't too bad of a system".
The question begs how would we put into action a shift from the current slavery system to a true bartering service oriented system.
I imagine you would just have to start small. Start a network of like minded individuals who all could provide a different service and/or good, and search out/recruit those who have talents and or skillsets that would benefit your network.
Anything I am missing here?
Go ahead and create a network where you all do pretty well for yourselves, and call it a day. You are missing nothing!
You keep looking at this as if you are the "economy". The "people" are perpetually indebted, because of the impossibility of the "debt", to those who have a monopoly on "creating" currency.
Maybe because I and you are parts of our economy. We work, we do business, we create or lose money and/or wealth over time. Most can be winners since it is not all zero sum. There is typically more money and wealth moving forward for any successful country/economy. But to take advantage of those economic opportunities you need to have the understanding.
First off you need to separate personal/business debt from National Debt. If you mean that 'the people' are 'perpetually indebted' as in National Debt, then I agree with you. But you also have to understand that our National Debt will NEVER be paid down. So finding money that cannot exist to pay off all our current debt is an impossible and unnecessary exercise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by irspow
Congress and the Executives can only "create" debt for the people. They do not create currency. The "government" borrows from the Central Banking Families to "create" money. Since we are all "human collateral", since 1913, on this fictional debt that can never be repaid, we are nothing more than slaves on their Plantation. And yes, those who have a monopoly on the creation of money ARE the SOURCE of ALL money.
When the Federal Gov't spends, it spends into the private sector, where we now have more money. It creates National Debt which doesn't all get paid off. So Federal deficit spending creates private sector money without going through the Fed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by irspow
Even if the "government" were the sole "creators" of currency, and "banking" as we know it still "legalized", it still would be a system whereby the creators would consolidate all wealth unto themselves for a non-service.
No doubt that bankers and Gov't skims into perpetuity. But to believe all this means you think our private sector is not growing and successful. From what you say, our private sector would be circling the drain as we speak. It is not because there are enough people who do profitable business with an understanding of our money and systems. And this includes those who work for, or are paid in part by Gov't itself. And this is big business, possibly a 1/3 of our entire economy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by irspow
Congress DID have the Constitutional authority to create currency, but they gave away that monopoly to the Central Banking Families...until the people have a legal right to create money, they will always be slaves to those who can.
The middle class needs to get educated, learn the systems and so move and vote. Here's a 12 y/o Canadian girl asking your question.
You say this fictional perpetual "debt" to the Central Banking Families is of no concern to the people who are perpetual slaves to this perpetual "debt" is no problem. "Everyone is doing okay.", "It does not matter that the omnipotent financier class consume everything and provide nothing", whatever.
Why is it that there are a few families and friends who have more wealth than the remainder of the rest of humanity? What have these Gods done or provided, or invested for humanity? And by what Divine right do they have to extract and consolidate all wealth of humanity for themselves?
You may be perfectly happy with the crumbs that you are allowed to keep, that is fine. But your happiness in being able to exploit others through the abomination of the monetary system's scams in no way justifies their existence.
Again, you are looking at the small picture, not the worldwide economic scam. The uncountable deaths, misery, and deprivation worldwide due to the Omnipotent Parasites at the top is not justifiable in any way.
I am not insinuating that you are necessarily evil, you are just mimicking you slave masters, trying to survive as best you can. But your masters, the Central Banking Families, are evil animals who enslave and exploit, and essentially murder indirectly untold millions, for their personal gain and "profit", while they offer NOTHING in exchange.
I hope irspow understands that this is not a new problem. The Money Changers were using the temple to enrich themselves by trading currencies without adding any value. No wonder Jesus threw them out.
I believe irspow is trying to formulate an economic system based on actual fairness and one where everyone has to work, in some way or another, for their income. I believe that is a wonderful dream but is nothing but a dream. Money Changing humans will never let it actually happen.
Note the Money Changers retaliated by getting Jesus declared a rebel and a threat to the Empire. That got him executed. The MC do not play games and never have. That is why they own the governments, the armies and the police. Oh, and most of the money.
Usury was outlawed by the Church, for 1,700 years, as long as the Church held sway,
usury was in its place, and the Mohammedans condemned it also.
Today you have a usury-free zone in Bhutan (monarchy) where the happiness ratio
is off the charts.
Usury is a sin, not only because it exploits the majority for the benefit
of a paltry number of effendi, but because usury grants a non-producing, non-living,
non-natural entity called "money" the power to generate its own, as if it were a living thing.
^^Think about how sick and destructive that is ^^
Here is a show that will be up for listening to July 31.
I hope irspow understands that this is not a new problem. The Money Changers were using the temple to enrich themselves by trading currencies without adding any value. No wonder Jesus threw them out.
I believe irspow is trying to formulate an economic system based on actual fairness and one where everyone has to work, in some way or another, for their income. I believe that is a wonderful dream but is nothing but a dream. Money Changing humans will never let it actually happen.
Note the Money Changers retaliated by getting Jesus declared a rebel and a threat to the Empire. That got him executed. The MC do not play games and never have. That is why they own the governments, the armies and the police. Oh, and most of the money.
Of course the "money" scams are as old as "money" itself. This is nothing new for sure. However, over the last three centuries, a few have PERFECTED the slavery system and have enslaved all of humanity in a very short time. (From a historical perspective.)
They have bankrupted and thus own all of the supposed "governments" and the people under their "rule", have "legalized" all of their evil scams of slavery in those "nations", and mercilessly abuse, murder, enslave, and dehumanize the entire species for their personal "profit".
This is not new, but the current system in place has consolidated virtually all power and wealth in the hands of a very few to enslave all humanity in just a few centuries. This is the most successful conquering force that man has ever witnessed. It is equivalent to a Royal Bloodline conquering the entire world in just a few generations. A truly amazing and horrific feat of barbarity and evil. Indeed the greatest conquerers by far in the history of human existence.
There is so much death and destruction in the world, yet over the last few decades the Chinese have raised hundreds of millions of people from poverty into the middle class and beyond using the power of their fiat.
Far off the topic of the OP for sure we have gone...
Usury or interest remains a simple concept if one frees themselves from the propaganda of the omnipotent money-changers :P
Usury or interest as being a "good" thing means:
Demanding more than one has offered in an "exchange" with their fellow man.
That it is "good" to demand more value than you offer to another in an "exchange".
Thus usury or interest is nothing more than an unbalanced "trade" with your fellow man.
Usury or interest is a practice of exploitation when dealing with others. There is no pretense of making a value for value trade in any way whatsoever. The only goal is to exploit others. It is predatory and repugnant.
Thus usury and interest is nothing but exploitation and predation of your fellow man.
So to believe that usury is "good" it follows that exploitation and predation of your fellow man is "good".
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Of course the "money" scams are as old as "money" itself. This is nothing new for sure. However, over the last three centuries, a few have PERFECTED the slavery system and have enslaved all of humanity in a very short time. (From a historical perspective.)
