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View Poll Results: Are all Cultures Equal?
Yes, things like slavery and unalienable rights are merely subjective and amoral, not inherently right or wrong 5 8.62%
No, cultures that propagate the violation of unalienable rights are inferior to those that don't. 53 91.38%
Voters: 58. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-27-2016, 07:23 AM
 
16,760 posts, read 9,108,264 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
You were speaking about "rape culture." All I said was that rape is not a culture, it is an act/action. I also stated our American culture has evolved/changed in regards to the rape and aspects of it that are a crime or not.

However, I also followed up with your example of 1816 culture being inferior to 2016 with the fact that in 1816 American society did have what some would consider "better" values and morals (i.e. cultural aspects) versus our 2016 American culture. You did not answer my question in regards to if you believe any aspects of 1816 American culture were superior/better than 2016 American culture.

If you think any aspects of 1816 American culture are superior/better than 2016 American culture then you cannot equivocally say that it is a fact that 1816 American culture is inferior/worse than 2016 American culture.
You seem to be admitting that in some regards a culture can be inferior ie marital rape, slavery, killing gays, etc.....

It is possible that 1816 American culture could have some aspects might have some better aspects culturally than America in 2016. However, it is completely irrational to think that the net effect is neutral. That every gain is offset perfectly and simultaneously with an equal drawback.

You would never willing trade 2016 culture for 1816 culture and bring back slavery, women subjugation, etc...

Is it not time to concede this debate?
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Old 07-27-2016, 07:28 AM
 
16,760 posts, read 9,108,264 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
Americans aren't gods. We don't define everything. You posted some old American's view on "unalienable" rights which most Americans including the supreme court today don't even agree.

There aren't any unalienable rights. Period!

What we, USA, have are just some privileges that can be taken away anytime and they are getting less and less each day as the people become more dependent on the government.
#1

You say that killing gays is amoral, neither right or wrong, and therefore a culture that propagates the murder of gays cannot be judged by me as inferior in that aspect.



I say that killing gays goes against unalienable rights of right to one's life and that all civilized societies must have a culture that protects the right to life of gays and consider a slip in reverse as a horrible setback.

#2

Of course America can and has failed at protecting unalienable rights. Unalienable rights is a principle. And it is up to us to hold our culture and therefore our government accountable when they violate unalienable rights.
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Old 07-27-2016, 07:34 AM
 
18,827 posts, read 9,620,636 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon View Post
#1

You say that killing gays is amoral, neither right or wrong, and therefore a culture that propagates the murder of gays cannot be judged by me as inferior in that aspect.



I say that killing gays goes against unalienable rights of right to one's life and that all civilized societies must have a culture that protects the right to life of gays and consider a slip in reverse as a horrible setback.

#2

Of course America can and has failed at protecting unalienable rights. Unalienable rights is a principle. And it is up to us to hold our culture and therefore our government accountable when they violate unalienable rights.
I never said anything about killing gays.

All I said was that we don't have any unalienable rights. Nobody has. So your premise is entirely wrong.
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Old 07-27-2016, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Somewhere extremely awesome
3,025 posts, read 2,462,538 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon View Post
In your post you admit that all cultures are not equal.

If you believe a culture (the beliefs and customs) of a society "needs to be changed" it is in fact inferior in that aspect to a culture that doesn't need to be changed in that regard.

Things like: "is Mexican cuisine or Italian cuisine better?"....has nothing to with unalienable rights and must be considered purely subjective and NOT quantifiable.

Cultures that say kill gay people for being gay, own slaves, etc...go against unalienable rights and civilized societies must condemn them and consider this purely objective and quantifiable.
I would be very cautious when applying that logic. Yes, there are certain things that are just plain wrong. I agree that if those things are part of a culture, they need to be changed. But it is very difficult to determine when something is universally wrong. I would generally say that if something codifies harming others that aren't causing harm to others, that it's universally wrong, like you say. So obviously killing gay people for being gay or own slaves is wrong under all circumstances. But you could make that argument about abortion or the death penalty as well if you would like.

For cultural differences, though, I'll give a slightly less life-or-death scenario. Let's say an adult is telling a story to a group of children. In white American society, the cultural expectation is for the children to be quiet, sit still, and listen, maybe occasionally laughing when something is funny or shrieking when something is scary. In many cultures, however, children are much more active participants, interjecting their thoughts and insights, with the environment getting loud at times. In these cultures, this exuberance is expected and celebrated. However, let's say you have a group of 9 white American children and 3 minority children from a more boisterous storytelling tradition with a white American adult storyteller. They probably are going to think that the minority children are being rude and disrespectful. But in this case, it can mostly be attributed to culture differences.

Which one is better?
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Old 07-27-2016, 07:41 AM
 
Location: Wisconsin
1,256 posts, read 696,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharks With Lasers View Post
I don't like the equal, superior, or inferior implication of this question.

There are some things that are just plain wrong, like murder, rape, slavery, etc. If these things are "acceptable" in a culture, that needs to be changed. Sadly, a lot of us accept certain things that are considered "wrong" if we justify them enough.

There are other things though that really don't matter. Whether somebody works 8-5 Monday through Friday or 9-12 and 4-7 Monday through Thursday with a siesta in the middle isn't relevant, for example.
Absolutely agree with this. And I also don't like branding an entire culture as inferior. Cultures are multi-faceted, complex, and constantly adapting. The truth is that the same culture that accepts some actions that are just plain wrong on an objective level because they subvert the rights of individuals to life and liberty may have other aspects that are wonderful and beautiful and worth preserving. We can say that one aspect of a culture is absolutely wrong and condemnable and still honor the things that culture gets right.
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Old 07-27-2016, 07:43 AM
 
16,760 posts, read 9,108,264 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
I never said anything about killing gays.

All I said was that we don't have any unalienable rights. Nobody has. So your premise is entirely wrong.
If killing gays for being gay is wrong, than a culture that propagates the killing of gays for being gay is better, equal to, or less than a culture that doesn't - on this issue?
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Old 07-27-2016, 07:46 AM
 
18,827 posts, read 9,620,636 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon View Post
If killing gays for being gay is wrong, than a culture that propagates the killing of gays for being gay is better, equal to, or less than a culture that doesn't - on this issue?
Once again, I never said anything killing gays.

Since you keep bringing it up, some people think it's wrong and others think it's right. Who's right? You don't get to determine that.
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Old 07-27-2016, 07:47 AM
 
16,760 posts, read 9,108,264 times
Reputation: 6784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharks With Lasers View Post
I would be very cautious when applying that logic. Yes, there are certain things that are just plain wrong. I agree that if those things are part of a culture, they need to be changed. But it is very difficult to determine when something is universally wrong. I would generally say that if something codifies harming others that aren't causing harm to others, that it's universally wrong, like you say. So obviously killing gay people for being gay or own slaves is wrong under all circumstances. But you could make that argument about abortion or the death penalty as well if you would like.
BAM! You agree with me that all cultures are NOT equal.

Killing gays for being gay is "just plain wrong." A culture that propagates such heinous actions "need to be changed" and they need to be changed, because on this single issue - it is inferior.

Of course on other issues, that same culture could be just fine --- and we shouldn't judge trivial and subjective issues like how they listen to stories or what kind of food they eat.
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Old 07-27-2016, 07:50 AM
 
16,760 posts, read 9,108,264 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
Once again, I never said anything killing gays.

Since you keep bringing it up, some people think it's wrong and others think it's right. Who's right? You don't get to determine that.

Your logic accepts the killing of gays as amoral - neither right or wrong, but merely in the eye of the beholder.


Any civilized society must determine that killing gays for being gay is morally abhorrent.

We cannot accept that in our culture as it goes against our unalienable rights.


Unlike you, I will always state that killing gays for merely being gay is always wrong and evil.
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Old 07-27-2016, 07:53 AM
 
18,827 posts, read 9,620,636 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon View Post
Your logic accepts the killing of gays as amoral - neither right or wrong, but merely in the eye of the beholder.


Any civilized society must determine that killing gays for being gay is morally abhorrent.

We cannot accept that in our culture as it goes against our unalienable rights.


Unlike you, I will always state that killing gays for merely being gay is always wrong and evil.
Once again, it is YOUR view. Plenty of people would disagree with you just like plenty people think abortion is wrong.

This does not make a culture better or worse. Maybe better or worse for YOU but again, it's your individual view.

We can't compare cultures. Cultures are just different. A culture may be better or worse for each one of us but that's our individual view. I can say American culture is better for ME than Muslim culture but I can't say American culture is just better than Muslim culture because it's not better just different.
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