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This is what people in power tell people without power. They intuitively feel they have the right to tell the protesters how to frame their protests. But it's not that they have the right. It's that they have the power. They are the ones being appealed to, so they have the upper hand. And that contributes to the feelings of powerlessness and frustration that protesters have.
How so? I'm not in any form of power. I also don't look at the situation as having the right to tell anyone how to do anything. Protestors are free to protest however they see fit within the law. On the flip side of that coin, they should expect a reaction similar to the action they are performing. (Newton's 3rd law again) I'm coming from a place of a living being (not just human). Living beings are reactive. If a being feels threatened they move into a defensive stance to protect themselves whether it be mentally, emotionally, or physically. This is a basic instinct of self preservation. We all have it. If a being feels comfortable and sees no obvious threat they are more open to staying around another being to either learn from them or to help them.
My point is simply that if you want me to understand what you are protesting about... you need to present the issue in such a way that I can relate to it and understand it. A protest is an appeal. The goal is to appeal to the masses to get them to understand the plight being brought forth.
If you're coming at me with force, or with anger and are working off of emotion that clouds your ability to rationally have a discussion then I have little option other than to move into a defensive stance and I then lose any ability or desire to listen. The conversation was over before it started.
When you present a problem to me (personally) in a peaceful way and lay out the concerns and potential solution only then can I make a decision if I side with you and want to help you see the solution come to fruition. If I can understand the struggle I will do what I can to help end it.
This is not something I look at as one having power over another. It's a simple request to fellow man to help out. Be clear and concise with what you need and I am all for helping my fellow man. I don't care what skin color you are. I care that you have considered me a potential ally and have asked me to listen to you. If that request is respectfully made I will listen to anyone. I think it's a pretty basic concept really.
Use SeasonedNewbie as an example. Read their posts. These posts tend to point blame directly at white people, but nowhere in those posts does he/she present a problem and a solution. It's just pointing blame at white people for the anger that they harbor. Those posts are wrought with raw emotion and very little evidence of intent to find a solution to problems that they haven't specifically defined. This spurs a defensive instinct and allows no room for any type of positive discourse. I see some white people in these threads that do the exact same thing. These types of people minimize any chance at working together for a solution. If someone cannot get out of their own way, there is no progress that can be made.
This is not something I look at as one having power over another. It's a simple request to fellow man to help out. Be clear and concise with what you need and I am all for helping my fellow man. I don't care what skin color you are. I care that you have considered me a potential ally and have asked me to listen to you. If that request is respectfully made I will listen to anyone. I think it's a pretty basic concept really.
The problem is the issue is all about one group having power over another.
While I appreciate that you are offering your personal perspective, as am I, those personal perspectives are rooted in whether one is in the group that has the power, or the group that is struggling for equal status. It cannot not be. Our place in society creates our perspective of society. While empathy can broaden that perspective, (and I think a person's willingness to listen is rooted in their ability to empathize) it cannot entirely change that perspective.
I guess that is where I have the disconnect. I have no power. I have to work, have to provide, and have to deal with racism albeit a different form or racism than many blacks must deal with. But it's still there. I have to deal with health issues, I'm not rich, nor do I have any affiliations that give me a leg up over anyone else. At the end of the day, I am just a human being the same as you.
I don't personally know any white person that has power over anyone else. I'm not saying it doesn't exist somewhere, but it doesn't exist in my world. So there may be pockets of those types of people on both sides of the argument but I don't view it as being an issue at the society level.
But... in fairness I recognize that you identify a lack of equal status as a problem and I do recognize that it could be a real problem in certain areas. We've had a very pleasant discourse (which I am appreciative of) so how do you propose we work towards ensuring equal status for everyone?
I guess that is where I have the disconnect. I have no power. I have to work, have to provide, and have to deal with racism albeit a different form or racism than many blacks must deal with. But it's still there. I have to deal with health issues, I'm not rich, nor do I have any affiliations that give me a leg up over anyone else. At the end of the day, I am just a human being the same as you.
I don't personally know any white person that has power over anyone else. I'm not saying it doesn't exist somewhere, but it doesn't exist in my world. So there may be pockets of those types of people on both sides of the argument but I don't view it as being an issue at the society level.
But... in fairness I recognize that you identify a lack of equal status as a problem. We've had a very pleasant discourse (which I am appreciative of) so how do you propose we work towards ensuring equal status for everyone?
It's been a very pleasant conversation.
I don't think that lack of equal status is a problem, though. A boss has power over his employees. The boss and employees don't have equal status. One is the boss. If I am stopped by a police officer, we don't have equal status. The police officer has greater authority. Parents have more power than their children. Teachers have more power than their students. Coaches have more power than players. We live in a world where we navigate the inequality of power everyday.
The problem is a lack of equal status that is based on race or ethnicity or even gender. The inequality is not situational, it's not merit-based, and it's systematic. The people in power benefit by a system that perpetuates inequality based on factors beyond a person's control (for the most part). And while we've progressed a long way in dismantling the systematic discrimination that was once prevalent in our country, we haven't been totally successful. I think that was brought to light in the Baltimore study that was released today. A 53-year-old black man stopped 30 times in 4 years by the police? And never charged with anything.
Yes, we've made progress. But we need to acknowledge that we need to make more. And we need to do a better job of identifying discrimination, and we need a better way of dealing with it. We seem to veer between slapping some on the hands for discrimination, and firing and even sending to jail others for discrimination. Extremes either way. The protests are about identifying discrimination. And the protests largely focus on glaring examples, or at least what seem to be glaring examples at the outset, but when looked at more closely, we find that these incidents are much more complex. As are race relations in this country. There aren't any simple solutions. But if we try to pretend that there aren't any problems, then we won't reach any solutions.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nlambert
I guess that is where I have the disconnect. I have no power. I have to work, have to provide, and have to deal with racism albeit a different form or racism than many blacks must deal with. But it's still there. I have to deal with health issues, I'm not rich, nor do I have any affiliations that give me a leg up over anyone else. At the end of the day, I am just a human being the same as you.
I don't personally know any white person that has power over anyone else. I'm not saying it doesn't exist somewhere, but it doesn't exist in my world. So there may be pockets of those types of people on both sides of the argument but I don't view it as being an issue at the society level.
But... in fairness I recognize that you identify a lack of equal status as a problem and I do recognize that it could be a real problem in certain areas. We've had a very pleasant discourse (which I am appreciative of) so how do you propose we work towards ensuring equal status for everyone?
Quote:
I have no power.
Sorry to insert myself into this conversation, but I have something to show you.
Even people who believe they have no power, have power, they just don't see it. Or they see it, but they don't use it.
I don't think that lack of equal status is a problem, though. A boss has power over his employees. The boss and employees don't have equal status. One is the boss. If I am stopped by a police officer, we don't have equal status. The police officer has greater authority. Parents have more power than their children. Teachers have more power than their students. Coaches have more power than players. We live in a world where we navigate the inequality of power everyday.
The problem is a lack of equal status that is based on race or ethnicity or even gender. The inequality is not situational, it's not merit-based, and it's systematic. The people in power benefit by a system that perpetuates inequality based on factors beyond a person's control (for the most part). And while we've progressed a long way in dismantling the systematic discrimination that was once prevalent in our country, we haven't been totally successful. I think that was brought to light in the Baltimore study that was released today. A 53-year-old black man stopped 30 times in 4 years by the police? And never charged with anything.
Yes, we've made progress. But we need to acknowledge that we need to make more. And we need to do a better job of identifying discrimination, and we need a better way of dealing with it. We seem to veer between slapping some on the hands for discrimination, and firing and even sending to jail others for discrimination. Extremes either way. The protests are about identifying discrimination. And the protests largely focus on glaring examples, or at least what seem to be glaring examples at the outset, but when looked at more closely, we find that these incidents are much more complex. As are race relations in this country. There aren't any simple solutions. But if we try to pretend that there aren't any problems, then we won't reach any solutions.
I agree with all of your points above. I was going to bring up the equality with authority (bosses, police, etc..) but figured it was a known variable that we all know none of us have control over. Point well taken there.
We do need to make more progress. We absolutely need to find a better way of dealing with discrimination as I have no doubt it still goes on today. One thing that I have noticed that tends to be a hot button and usually brings in the storm is in regards to police stopping black people and white people's observations there forth. We are usually criticized for stating what looks obvious to some of us (although it may not look the same through other's eyes). We are usually told that we don't understand because we are in a position of white superiority. The thing is...... there could be merit to BOTH positions and I think we should all be more open to conversation and addressing problems than quickly trying to redirect the blame to take the heat off one portion of society. We've all got some fires to put out in our own houses.
In areas that have a high crime rate that is statistically shown to be from a certain demographic, that demographic is watched much more closely as statistically they are the ones committing a larger percentage of the crime. I think that causes some people to erroneously be put under a microscope as the expectation is set based on statistics that this person could potentially be a suspect.
Back home (my town is majority black as of about 20 years ago) that demographic is 20-30 year old white males that live on the SE outskirts of the city limits. That area is prone to methamphetamine cooking so anyone that looks even remotely suspect is pulled over and searched. The PD literally ripped my cousin's truck apart one Saturday afternoon because someone reported seeing his pickup truck coming off an old logging road in the middle of nowhere. He was 17 at the time and looking for any signs of it being a hunting club so that he could call the number and inquire on joining for the upcoming hunting season. He was completely innocent, but fit the demographic of the type of people who typically committed crime in the area.
With all that being said, I think we need to make more progress on both sides. These things all need to happen in parallel, not waiting for one group to make the first move. My observations from what I see with statistics, the news media, and from my personal experiences in my own city are:
1.) The black communities in these areas need to work more diligently in attempting to get others in the community to work together to reduce violence and to increase positive visibility that the communities need to change the statistics. Some of the black people who so openly shout their disregard and disdain for white people in general should make an effort to minimize those outcry's in an effort to work together for positive change.
2.) White people need to do a better job at recognizing the positive actions that these black communities take and need to understand that despite statistics, judgment needs to be held on a case by case basis (more on this in my next point) based upon an individual's actions and not passed on an entire community because of select individuals. White people should make more of an effort to minimize their outcries of anger towards black people based upon the actions of a few.
3.) The news media needs to stop looking for the next big story to gain ratings, and report more on positive stories of all people working together instead of picking and choosing which race they will report on today and tomorrow. They play a huge part in dividing us, as many news stories create a knee jerk emotional reaction that sparks an immediate judgment that is very difficult to reverse once set into motion. When the story is reported without all the facts, and then the facts come out later it just further fuels the fire that is already burning. The news media has too much control over our emotions because they have figured out that emotion drives ratings.
(it is an old link, i am surprised the page is still there)
We all have the ability to influence someone if we choose to do so. I have no power to directly affect what happens in the lives of black society. I cannot influence the behavior of others of another race unless they allow themselves to listen to what I say. They would have to allow me the power to influence them. This is true for everyone whether they think they have the capability or not. A small influence here and there will eventually add up to changing the mindset of an entire population of people.
A bad example (but an example nonetheless to show how influence and power can work) is Hitler. Hitler sold the public on change. He used all the right words and phrases to get the public to let down their guard and begin to believe what he said. He then used that influence to position himself in such a way that when the time was right he had full control over an entire population of people and the demise of many of them.
If one man can influence an entire nation in such a negative way as he did then we can start to use the power of positive influence amongst our peers to start the gears of change moving in our own communities. We allow ourselves to be influenced by the media, government, and those around us out of trust. We can build that level of trust and then use it to spread positive or negative change. Sadly, this influence typically results in some people feeling as if they have no power to change themselves.
That's not what I meant, and you know it. However, I wasn't explicit in my comment, so touché.
So let me be clear ...
I don't know you from a hole in the wall. How would I know what you meant? & before you clear up that one, how about addressing this one first:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
If the southern man would do what? From your link:
"Let us not bother our brains about what Providence intends to do with our Negroes in the distant future, but glory in and profit to the utmost by what He has done for them in transplanting them here, and setting them to work on our plantations. . . . True philanthropy to the Negro, begins, like charity, at home; and if Southern men would act as if the canopy of heaven were inscribed with a covenant, in letters of fire, that the Negro is here, and here forever; is our prop- erty, and ours forever; . . . they would accomplish more good for the race in five years than they boast the institution itself to have accom- plished in two centuries. . . ."
...
Are you claiming this statement to be Mr. Du Bois' assessment?
If you want to be taken seriously, go back to the source & then get back to me after you clear this one up.
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