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Old 07-27-2016, 03:26 PM
 
Location: SGV
24,797 posts, read 9,655,665 times
Reputation: 9722

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AminWi View Post
How would this be at all compatible with democracy?
Democracy isn't compatible with freedom.
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Old 07-27-2016, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
8,106 posts, read 2,778,320 times
Reputation: 4363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shankapotomus View Post
Many have perhaps rightly criticized the idea of physically breaking the United States up into politically Left and Right camps.

The foremost objection being that it would be logistically impossible because so many Liberals and Conservatives are mixed together in the same states all across the country.

That's probably a valid objection.

So here is my second proposal for a peaceful breaking up:

What if we did it in small doses?

What if we got some states to agree to set aside small neutral experimental areas or pockets where left-wing groups can experiment with just left-wing ideas and right-wing groups can experiment with just right-wing ideas and neither one can impose on the other?

And anyone motivated to move to these areas can, and free themselves from being under the legislative jurisdiction of law makers from the offending political party.

In other words, in a politically conservative pocket, abortion can be forever outlawed and never challenged politically.

And in a politically liberal pocket, abortion can be forever a choice and never challenged politically. And so forth with other laws.

And as these pockets became more popular and populated, we could allow for their expansion.

And that way conservative's could slowly gravitate to areas governed by conservative policies and liberals could slowly gravitate to areas governed by liberal policies.

So you could stay where you are if you are in a mixed political area but if things ever got too much for you, you would have these small political homogenous pockets as legal options to seek refuge in.

And over time, eventually we would get a more homogenous separation of the political groups where we could formally attain a physical separation of the United States.

So it wouldn't be this abrupt Earth-shattering split but a slow migration out of areas politically offensive into areas more politically agreeable.

And these areas would be allowed to expand and grow---avoiding mixed political areas--- as their populations grew.

So in summery:

1. Set aside small politically homogenous test areas that can't be shared by diametrically opposed political parties
2. Allow people to migrate to, build up and expand those areas without interfering in or overlapping mixed political areas like existing cities
3. Allow politically diametrically opposed individuals to separate themselves into politically homogenous areas over time
4. While this wouldn't solve political infighting within the same political group, it would allow access by individuals to the more agreeable government they prefer, rather than pitting an ultra-conservative against a liberal government or an ultra-liberal against a conservative government

Anyone have any objections to this?



Sounds a lot like the original concept of states rights.

Don't like the Conservative laws and values in one state? You are free to vote with your feet and move to a more Liberal state.

That is how the founders intended our system of government to work before the Federal Government became such an all powerful entity.
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Old 07-27-2016, 03:30 PM
 
Location: The ends DO NOT justify the means!!!
4,783 posts, read 3,166,806 times
Reputation: 1335
Quote:
Originally Posted by AminWi View Post
How would this be at all compatible with democracy?
Who cares about democracy? It is just as barbaric and authoritarian toward the minority (or those not in power imposing their personal will) as is any nightmare form of "government".

To be compatible with democracy is to be compatible with using thug government aggression, violence, and coercion to impose the will of some upon others. Disgusting, immoral, and evil. Tyranny, whether by majority, collective, "representatives", dictator, thug, is still tyranny.

Aggression is evil. A crime for a person is still a crime for government. What is evil for one man to do to another is just as evil for government to do to any man.
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Old 07-27-2016, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Texas
35,249 posts, read 19,287,378 times
Reputation: 20856
Default I have an idea for a peaceful separation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shankapotomus View Post
Many have perhaps rightly criticized the idea of physically breaking the United States up into politically Left and Right camps.

The foremost objection being that it would be logistically impossible because so many Liberals and Conservatives are mixed together in the same states all across the country.

That's probably a valid objection.

So here is my second proposal for a peaceful breaking up:

What if we did it in small doses?

What if we got some states to agree to set aside small neutral experimental areas or pockets where left-wing groups can experiment with just left-wing ideas and right-wing groups can experiment with just right-wing ideas and neither one can impose on the other?

And anyone motivated to move to these areas can, and free themselves from being under the legislative jurisdiction of law makers from the offending political party.

In other words, in a politically conservative pocket, abortion can be forever outlawed and never challenged politically.

And in a politically liberal pocket, abortion can be forever a choice and never challenged politically. And so forth with other laws.

And as these pockets became more popular and populated, we could allow for their expansion.

And that way conservative's could slowly gravitate to areas governed by conservative policies and liberals could slowly gravitate to areas governed by liberal policies.

So you could stay where you are if you are in a mixed political area but if things ever got too much for you, you would have these small political homogenous pockets as legal options to seek refuge in.

And over time, eventually we would get a more homogenous separation of the political groups where we could formally attain a physical separation of the United States.

So it wouldn't be this abrupt Earth-shattering split but a slow migration out of areas politically offensive into areas more politically agreeable.

And these areas would be allowed to expand and grow---avoiding mixed political areas--- as their populations grew.

So in summery:

1. Set aside small politically homogenous test areas that can't be shared by diametrically opposed political parties
2. Allow people to migrate to, build up and expand those areas without interfering in or overlapping mixed political areas like existing cities
3. Allow politically diametrically opposed individuals to separate themselves into politically homogenous areas over time
4. While this wouldn't solve political infighting within the same political group, it would allow access by individuals to the more agreeable government they prefer, rather than pitting an ultra-conservative against a liberal government or an ultra-liberal against a conservative government

Anyone have any objections to this?

It's all a pipe dream.

Of course, you're welcome to separate yourself from America whenever the urge strikes you.

That door's always open.

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Old 07-27-2016, 03:43 PM
 
Location: SGV
24,797 posts, read 9,655,665 times
Reputation: 9722
Quote:
Originally Posted by irspow View Post
That is fine. I am for any voluntary agreements made among free human beings. I am a PHILOSOPHICAL libertarian, so I have no problem with (intellectually pure) anarchism. But people will form voluntary agreements, whether you call them "governments" or not.

Live and let live
And as long as each individual or voluntary association follows the NAP no one is inconvenienced...never mind enslaved as we are now.

I am an anarchist in the sense that I believe the default standing of a person at birth is anarchy. Through voluntary associations/contracts where both parties are free from force and cognitively able to consent an anarchist may voluntarily alter their freedoms. In this case they may lose their standing as an anarchist.

If you choose to never enter into any association/contract and uphold the NAP...great. You'll be an anarchist forever. If you choose to exit your associations upon completion of a contract...great. You'd go back to "anarchist" status.

My personality lends itself to a cooperative mindset. As is this case with the true individual-centric folks. I value the life, skills, intelligence, and compassion of my fellow man.

It's ironic for the statists to hear that because they think they value life by being collectivists within the statist paradigm. Telling everyone who to use your labor to serve, how much soda to drink, how to have sex (the old sodomy laws).

What they really are is brutish authoritarians. They devalue and dehumanize the spirit of the individual. Cooperation to them is force...nothing more.
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Old 07-27-2016, 03:44 PM
 
17,751 posts, read 15,646,080 times
Reputation: 6391
I just wish we had a Constitution that specifically defined its powers while leaving all those not specified to the states. That way people could move to a state compatible with their view of government. That would have solved this problem. Too bad.
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Old 07-27-2016, 03:58 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
12,764 posts, read 7,823,323 times
Reputation: 13083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch33 View Post
You can have New Jersey.
Uh oh. Sounds like someone got 'killed and eaten'. Couldn't make it in Jersey, eh?

Back on topic; the OP idea would not work. Even a small state like New Jersey is pretty much divided, with the southern part being more conservative and the northern part more liberal.

I live in central New Jersey (I'm a centrist!)

Besides, people move from state to state for job opportunities. Imagine a poor conservative who can only gain employment in a liberal state! Would that be fair?
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Old 07-27-2016, 04:03 PM
 
Location: The ends DO NOT justify the means!!!
4,783 posts, read 3,166,806 times
Reputation: 1335
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
I just wish we had a Constitution that specifically defined its powers while leaving all those not specified to the states. That way people could move to a state compatible with their view of government. That would have solved this problem. Too bad.
The Constitution did...and then the Federal Occupying Force conquered the States and took them as prisoners.
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Old 07-27-2016, 04:05 PM
 
17,751 posts, read 15,646,080 times
Reputation: 6391
Quote:
Originally Posted by irspow View Post
The Constitution did...and then the Federal Occupying Force conquered the States and took them as prisoners.
Yep, that's pretty much it.
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Old 07-27-2016, 04:09 PM
 
16,284 posts, read 9,113,496 times
Reputation: 6561
The Constitution actually offers a peaceful separation with continued unification...


Its called the 10th amendment. if our federal government would learn to live by it,
and our SCOTUS would start enforcing it


Liberals could live happily in their utopic world and conservatives could continue unmolested in their own...


all the while, living peacefully in these UNITED States of America....




Just saying....
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