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Old 07-28-2016, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
4,370 posts, read 5,146,302 times
Reputation: 3896

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post

In reality, the ďfree marketĒ is a bunch of rules about (1) what can be owned and traded
There are no "rules" in the free market. The free market is the result of the demands of people, and the ability of other people to meet these demands

Quote:
(the genome? slaves? nuclear materials? babies? votes?);
If there is a demand and market for these things, I don't see the problem. We already have trades for babies, it's called adoption. People don't look at adoption as a business, but that's exactly what it is.

The free market doesn't support slavery, and I've written at lengths of how slavery is absolutely impossible in the free market.

In a way votes are kind of traded, but not in a free market sort of way.

Quote:
(2) on what terms (equal access to the internet? the right to organize unions? corporate monopolies? the length of patent protections? );
Most of the things you mentioned are impossible without government interference. If left up to the market, there would be no unions.

Quote:
(3) under what conditions (poisonous drugs? unsafe foods? deceptive Ponzi schemes? uninsured derivatives? dangerous workplaces?)
I've been involved in 2 ponzi schemes, and it's was my fault. The government can't protect you from being an uninformed consumer. Anyone selling "unsafe" foods would be out of business in a heartbeat. The market takes care of such people. Same with uninsured derivatives, no one would ever trade with that exchange again. And it's in a company's best interest to have a safe environment.


Quote:
(4) whatís private and whatís public (police? roads? clean air and clean water? healthcare? good schools? parks and playgrounds?); (5) how to pay for what (taxes, user fees, individual pricing?). And so on.
None of these should be left to the public, in my opinion everything you listed should be completely private. The private versions of each one of these are superior to the "public" version.

Quote:
These rules donít exist in nature; they are human creations.

Yes, the market is a reflection of human wants, desires, and needs. It is a reflection of "human nature", in many ways urged on by our interaction with nature itself (the need to each, the need for shelter, the need to survive), and our own nature (the need to consume, the need to make our lives easier and better).
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Old 07-28-2016, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Houston
22,544 posts, read 11,603,779 times
Reputation: 9097
Let's face it a lot of these conservative black blowhards no one would have ever heard of if they had been born white. True beneficiaries of a quota system.
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Old 07-28-2016, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
33,325 posts, read 20,117,121 times
Reputation: 13018
Quote:
Originally Posted by flashes1 View Post
A fund manager? I'm not talking about that kind of job. I'm talking about starting a plumbing or electrical business, a gas station, a hotel, a restaurant, etc. etc. The Asian immigrants who came to America dirt poor have great success with these kinds of businesses. Heck, Asians are richer than White Americans on a per capita basis----I've argued that America should let any Asian immigrant into this country (outside of Indonesia and Bangladesh).
I respectfully disagree with you.

Why do we have immigration? The single principle underlying every category in the very complex web of statutes and regulations comprising modern immigration law is that itís good for employers. It might be nice to unite families. But that benefits only the immigrants themselves. Itís not a national policy. Cheap labor is, and every employer understands it well. They all support more immigration.

I think this country should take care of her own citizens first, especially when unemployment rate is high.
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Old 07-28-2016, 01:57 PM
 
4,899 posts, read 2,722,473 times
Reputation: 4398
Quote:
Originally Posted by whogo View Post
Let's face it a lot of these conservative black blowhards no one would have ever heard of if they had been born white. True beneficiaries of a quota system.
how very white of you to say

so nasty!
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Old 07-28-2016, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
4,370 posts, read 5,146,302 times
Reputation: 3896
Quote:
Originally Posted by flashes1 View Post
I hear you loud and clear. It's VERY hard to open a business, but if you have the right drive, you can do it. Look at the Vietnamese and other Asian immigrants. Those people were dirt effing poor, and look at all the businesses they've opened up. That kind of spirit is what Black America needs to tap into.
Most Asians do not come to this country dirt poor. Most come with an H1B Visa and the first thing they do is go to school and get a masters degree in some STEM major. So it's very easy for them to start a business. They have an incredible advantage over any American born person.

Quote:
Get into an Immigrant mentality. That nothing or nobody is going to stop me because I will work 24/7 until I succeed....and my kids will be high achievers. Chinese and Indians have flocked to my upper-middle class, white, local school district recently---I don't agree with everything they do----but those kids work very hard in school....put the white kids to shame. I respect that.
Ok, so I'm going to go to another country, and then come back to the USA with an H1B Visa. Gotcha. I should tell all other black people to do the same. Because that is pretty much the only reason they're doing better than most other people.
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Old 07-28-2016, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
4,370 posts, read 5,146,302 times
Reputation: 3896
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
I respectfully disagree with you.

Why do we have immigration? The single principle underlying every category in the very complex web of statutes and regulations comprising modern immigration law is that itís good for employers. It might be nice to unite families. But that benefits only the immigrants themselves. Itís not a national policy. Cheap labor is, and every employer understands it well. They all support more immigration.

I think this country should take care of her own citizens first, especially when unemployment rate is high.


It is not the government's job to protect American works from foreign competition. This is not how the the free market is suppose to work. Americans should be finding ways to compete with these foreign born workers, instead of asking the government to protect them from foreigners. It's a silly idea, and one that Trump promotes. Protectionism doesn't work.
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Old 07-28-2016, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
33,325 posts, read 20,117,121 times
Reputation: 13018
Quote:
Originally Posted by branh0913 View Post
It is not the government's job to protect American works from foreign competition. This is not how the the free market is suppose to work. Americans should be finding ways to compete with these foreign born workers, instead of asking the government to protect them from foreigners. It's a silly idea, and one that Trump promotes. Protectionism doesn't work.
What i have posted has nothing to do with protectionism.
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Old 07-28-2016, 02:03 PM
 
1,560 posts, read 1,550,989 times
Reputation: 1637
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
I respectfully disagree with you.

Why do we have immigration? The single principle underlying every category in the very complex web of statutes and regulations comprising modern immigration law is that itís good for employers. It might be nice to unite families. But that benefits only the immigrants themselves. Itís not a national policy. Cheap labor is, and every employer understands it well. They all support more immigration.

I think this country should take care of her own citizens first, especially when unemployment rate is high.
Unfortunately, due to low birth rates amongst white, black and Asian Americans, the USA needs immigration. I argue that we should be picky who we take in.


I would love to see Black America improve their stock, but it ain't gonna be thru welfare. You can't give people money and expect their lives to improve. It just doesn't work (look what happens with lottery winners---they end up worse after winning millions than they were before).


You have to work hard for something before you appreciate it, and you only hold on to something if you appreciate it. That's I think black America has to be incented to work hard....but they have to want it first. Their biggest problem is cultural. Any black who works hard, gets good grades, and speaks clear English is an Uncle Tom. Until they look at those things as COOL----they are doomed to accepting the Democrats hand-outs.
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Old 07-28-2016, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
4,370 posts, read 5,146,302 times
Reputation: 3896
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
What i have posted has nothing to do with protectionism.

You said "America should protect her citizens, especially when the unemployment rate is so high".

How is this not a protectionist position when it comes to labor economics?
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Old 07-28-2016, 02:06 PM
 
15,475 posts, read 7,888,142 times
Reputation: 8011
I am black and consider myself a moderate but I do hold a lot of conservative views. I also have no ill regard for conservatives in general.

However, I do agree with the OP on the topic of the popular black conservatives. Especially those like Stacey Dash.

I further believe that conservatism runs very deep in the "black community" and that it is a shame really that white conservatives buy into so much racial stereotyping and racial divisions as I truly do believe that if they stopped with all the rhetoric they would attract many more black Americans into their ideological following and political parties.

I base the above (that conservatism runs deep with black people) on the historical figures of black America who by many accounts were vastly popular and who held deep conservative views.

Frederick Douglass was deeply conservative and was one of the first major "black leaders" in America. Though he was an abolitionist (for good reason) and during that era abolition could be seen as "liberal" he was staunchly conservative in regards to his belief that if black people were given the opportunity to own themselves and work for themselves (and be free of overt race based prejudice and discrimination) that that was all that was needed for black people to succeed.

Prior to Douglass some lesser known black men in particular were conservative and activist, most notably the fathers of the "black church" in regards to Richard Allen and Absalom Jones (if you don't know about them you should look them up).

One of the most well known in the 19th and 20th centuries is Booker T Washington. Washington was the most popular black man in America and held a following greater than that of more black nationalistic minded African Americans of his era. A majority of black Americans in his era favored his views over those of WEB DuBois, who also held many conservative views in regards to the people being able to educate and work themselves into a better position in life. The only difference really between he and Washington during the height of both of these men's activsim was the fact that DuBois was much more vocal and passionate about how race based discrimination kept black people from achieving true success in America. He was much more knowledgeable about this IMO than Washington primarily because he was a social scientist and his initial works were taken on by him in an effort to prove how blacks were equal to whites and especially were equal in intellect and ability when given the opportunities to better themselves and not limit their aspirations to vocational education and work.

Dr. Carter G Woodson, the "father of black history" was staunchly conservative in his views. It would take too much to describe his conservatism, but he was very much a conservative but like the above gentlemen also knew and acknowledged that racism and even the "white supremacy ideology" were primary factors in keeping black people in a lowly position.

Many know that MLK was a Republican in his youth and he was conservative as well and he was also similar to the above in regards to race.

One of my favorite authors - Zora Neal Hurtson was also staunchly conservative throughout her life. I especially love her to this day because she never thought that being black was a negative thing. She was spoken ill of about in regards to the Brown vs Board decision and the subsequent desegregation of schools because she felt that black educators had created great schools across the country and especially so in her community and that just by going to school with white people didn't mean that a black child got a better education. I agree with her to this day and I do think that integration of schools, though not entirely negative, was not entirely positive for black children. The concept of "acting white" was never a part of black American children's school experiences until integration of school systems and black educational excellence and striving for excellence in education was the norm prior to school integration. Hurston also saw nothing wrong with black vernacular English and politically she supported conservative candidates.

Other conservative women were members of the Colored Womens Clubs of America including Ida B Wells-Barnett and Josephine Ruffin and others. These women were conservative, religious and had high standards of which they felt should be propagated in black neighborhoods all over the country.

I personally feel that black Americans need to go moreso back to our conservative roots, but we must also remember that many white conservatives are not willing to consider the "race" issue that is still an issue in this country. Instead of being serious and acknowledging the issues that black people face, they would rather put a coonish black person on a pedestal and call them someone who has "stepped off the plantation." Basically they will make black conservatism equal bufoonery, which is what they have done with various black people they attempt to paint as conservative.

If conservatives would go back to its roots and not associate me as a black person to the worst of the worst type of people of my demographic, I honestly would gladly be a conservative and a republican. The republican party's core tenets actually are much more in line with my views from a political side, but the people the GOP put up as their front man (see the latest candidate) and the divisive racial rhetoric is just not something I can align myself with. I actually was hopeful that the GOP was going to try to turn itself around and right some wrongs due to me knowing about their plans to reach out to black voters, but the party itself just fizzles on doing this even though in some states, including the one I live in (Ohio, which is an important state) they actually could get 10-20% of the black populace here interested in joining their party based on the historical conservatism that is widespread throughout the black population. I voted for Kasich in our last gubernatorial contest as did almost 30% of the black populace, primarily business owners and people who were fond of him for reaching out to black communities within the state. Conservatives, when they are serious and come from a place of a genuine desire to listen to problems of black citizens and provide conservative solutions, would be surprised at how many black people would join them as long as they kept the racial rhetoric at bay.
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