America is overdue for an education revolution.

[branh0913]

Originally Posted by Wells5

Your spelling is OK. It's your grammar and syntax that pegs you as a foreigner.



Aside from bad grammar ("the USA still greatly out produces") you keep spouting the globalist lie about the USA's out producing all other countries. This crowd includes "production" of electrical power, refinery products and mining in its definition of production.

I'm a software engineer. Maybe that is the reason behind my bad grammar? Who knows. The way grammar works for a computer is far different than the way we express grammar in english language. Also 95% of everyone I've worked with is a foreigner, perhaps I've picked up some of their habits?

Maybe I should amend my statement by stating, American companies greatly outproduce the rest of the world. Which I think is true, by and large. America has more large corporations per capita than any other country by a very wide margin.

Please tell me of a PA manufacturer that employes many thousands of workers at one site.

There probably aren't many, but these companies still are in existence. And that question leads me to believe that we're having two different conversations. Automation, and advances in machinery has allowed manufacturers to produce more, at a lower cost, and at far higher volumes. Your arguments seems to be "how much of it is actually being done in America". Manufacturing has been dying in America for quite awhile, I won't dispute that. This doesn't mean that manufacturing itself is in trouble, because it's not. The bottomline is that we can produce American goods without the need for Americans. It's messed up, but it's reality.

This is why we need to retrain our workforce to move into other things. There are jobs in the USA, but we don't have qualified people to fill these roles.

[branh0913]

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

You need to have the knowledge of the skills to put math into practice in the real world.

As stated, my son goes to a STEM high school. His math classes are based around real world applications for half the class and the other half is the computer adaptive class where the kids go over the actual skills.

Math in many public schools today are not just worksheets anymore. The worksheets that my son doesn't like to do are basically sheets that he has to write down the steps he took on an engineering project they are working on. He also has to take notes about why they chose to use a particular concept/method in their project/experiment. It is very hands on.

When they are taught formulas in the computer adaptive portion of class, the other half of that lesson is a project whereas student choose which formulas to use in the application of their project.

So again, it comes back to the fact that you don't know what goes on in many public schools today. Math is taught MUCH differently today than it was even when we were in school (you are probably around the same age I am). Of course this does vary by school district and even schools themselves, but even when my oldest kid was younger, they used computer adaptive practice for learning math skills and they did "projects" related to their math skills.

This is where I think you're just being a shill for the public school system. I don't do this much, but could you give me the name of this public high school? I'm curious. And just because ONE public high school may demonstrate that it can be good, that doesn't mean it's true for ALL public high schools, because that's certainly not the case. There is a reason why we're sending student and worker visas to China and India instead of hiring domestic talent in STEM. The bottomline is that there is a ton of demand for STEM, but NO QUALIFIED PEOPLE. Trust me, a few years ago my boss put me in charge of hiring a new developer. I thought it would be braindead simple. It wasn't unfortunately, and the process went on for MONTHS. And get this, 99% of all of our applicants weren't even native to America. Actually we only had 1 guy who was native to USA qualify for the job, everyone else was from China and India.

So there is a problem with how schools are teaching our kids. Just beause YOUR kid and YOUR district may not be that bad, doesn't mean it's the same story for everyone else. I mean you did mention that you were married and make at least a middle to upper middle class income. Well I can guarantee you, most people don't.

[PullMyFinger]

Originally Posted by branh0913

Totally agree with this! Except for the government exam, but it's a step in the right direction.

There has to be standards of education and a test would simply confirm that the schools are doing their jobs.

I think you and I are in agreement on this subject. The public education system worked when the US was mostly one culture. But obviously, our method of education is not reaching all the students.

[residinghere2007]

Originally Posted by MJJersey

We do need a new public education system (by grade):

K-4: learn basic math and reading
5-6: critical thinking and questioning
Kids with low academic potential stop and learn trades
6-8: hard sciences
Kids with mediocre academic potential switch to a higher skilled trade route
9 + kids with high academic potential specialize in a field

IMO this is a poor model.

Other than the K-4 portion as I do believe that in K-4 (actually PreK-4) that kids should be focused on basic math, reading AND writing. I also feel they should be introduced to science via more experiments and hands on learning. I have an elementary aged child as well and she hates that her brother gets to do such cool experiments at his high school and the only thing she did in science was "look at fruit" lol. Little kids really can absorb a lot of information, especially if it is in a fun way. I do a lot with my youngest child because she is much more interested in the world around her and especially in regards to earth science and space/physics and even computers.

I believe critical thinking and questioning is something that needs to be highly encouraged throughout our public educational system.

I also don't think that by middle school you can tell whether or not a child has a "low academic potential." Many times a child loses interest in school based on being bored, like my own kid with looking at fruit for science. If a kid is bored, they will withdraw. The main reason why I sent my oldest to the high school he attends is because they do interesting, hands-on science and engineering projects weekly. It keeps him interested in school. If he didn't do those projects, he would probably be on your track of low academic potential even though he scores very high in math and science skills and he was once labeled as "creatively gifted" something that I do think helps him have more interesting ideas in his engineering classes in particular. He is always wanted by his classmates to be on a team because he can think of creative ways to solve problems. But he is not an impressive student in a traditional sense and he is quiet and thoughtful and doesn't stand out like other kids who would probably be tracked more to an "academic potential" over him. He won't show his creativity for example in anything to other people unless they ask him. He is more of an introvert.

Kids cannot fit a one size fits all model. Potential cannot be accurately measured. There have been many geniuses in our history who did not do well in school like Einstein or Thomas Edison. I stated I was in a TAG program. I got into that program because I, like my son, didn't like to talk to people as a child and a pediatrician labeled me as "mentally retarded" when I was 3 years old. I was tested and found to be "talented and gifted" so was "tracked" throughout my K-12 years based on that.

[InformedConsent]

Originally Posted by branh0913

This is where I think you're just being a shill for the public school system. I don't do this much, but could you give me the name of this public high school? I'm curious. And just because ONE public high school may demonstrate that it can be good, that doesn't mean it's true for ALL public high schools, because that's certainly not the case. There is a reason why we're sending student and worker visas to China and India instead of hiring domestic talent in STEM. The bottom line is that there is a ton of demand for STEM, but NO QUALIFIED PEOPLE. Trust me, a few years ago my boss put me in charge of hiring a new developer. I thought it would be braindead simple. It wasn't unfortunately, and the process went on for MONTHS. And get this, 99% of all of our applicants weren't even native to America. Actually we only had 1 guy who was native to USA qualify for the job, everyone else was from China and India.

So there is a problem with how schools are teaching our kids. Just because YOUR kid and YOUR district may not be that bad, doesn't mean it's the same story for everyone else. I mean you did mention that you were married and make at least a middle to upper middle class income. Well I can guarantee you, most people don't.

People tend to vastly overestimate the quality of their own kids' schools. I have another experience I'll share about that:

Originally Posted by InformedConsent

A lot of people think that their public schools are excellent, and a lot of school districts LOVE to foster and encourage that perception, even when it's not true.

I spent the better part of a year in the not too distant past educating my local community and our school district on the fact that one cannot make that assumption.

I live in a town in which the percentage of college graduates is quite high. Consequently, the income levels and housing prices are also quite high. Our town's public high school brags that 94% of their graduates continue on to college. Sounds good so far, right?

Well... a newspaper publisher local to a different suburban area than the one in which I live threw a monkey wrench into that idyllic blissfully unaware mindset when they got ahold of ACT's College Readiness Benchmarks and compared suburban Chicago public school district students' ACT scores with ACT's own College Readiness Benchmarks.

(In Illinois, all 11th grade students take the ACT as part of the required NCLB testing, which is a GOOD thing as that way the state CANNOT misrepresent the quality of our public high schools by making the state test easier or instituting lower passing scores as explained here: Lake Wobegon, U.S.A. -- where all the children are above average)

What that data showed was that while our local public high school loved to brag that 94% of their graduates continued on to college, only 27% of them were adequately prepared to take first year college-level courses according to the ACT Benchmarks. Furthermore, that 27% figure was significantly below that of comparable area communities and even that of communities in which housing prices were significantly lower.

I brought the data to our community's attention by publicly speaking out at school committee and board meetings which are covered by local suburban press.

The stunner: NO ONE in the community had EVER looked at that data even though it is easily accessible from ACT. Not school admin. Not the school board. Not students' parents. No one.

Naturally all the usual stages followed... shock, anger, resistance, and finally... grudging acceptance. The school admin and school board would have done nothing about it. Parents and community members shocked and angered at learning the truth have put pressure on the school to make improvements. School admin and the school board have subsequently been analyzing the situation and are making extremely slow progress in improving academic outcomes. Our high school's ACT College Readiness percentage is better but not anywhere near where it should be given the aspirations of our graduating students.

For those interested in exactly what the ACT College Readiness Benchmark scores are (they're SURPRISINGLY low, hovering close to the national average scores ):
ACT College Readiness Benchmarks | ACT

Now, compare those low benchmark score minimums to the percentage of Chicago suburban school districts (some quite wealthy) that have prepared their students well enough to meet all 4 benchmark minimums (last column in chart):
https://prev.dailyherald.com/packages/2007/schoollfinance/chapter10.htm

Lesson learned... DON'T automatically assume a school district's "excellent" reputation is deserved, or that higher-priced homes equals better public schools.

[residinghere2007]

Originally Posted by branh0913

This is where I think you're just being a shill for the public school system. I don't do this much, but could you give me the name of this public high school? I'm curious. And just because ONE public high school may demonstrate that it can be good, that doesn't mean it's true for ALL public high schools, because that's certainly not the case. There is a reason why we're sending student and worker visas to China and India instead of hiring domestic talent in STEM. The bottomline is that there is a ton of demand for STEM, but NO QUALIFIED PEOPLE. Trust me, a few years ago my boss put me in charge of hiring a new developer. I thought it would be braindead simple. It wasn't unfortunately, and the process went on for MONTHS. And get this, 99% of all of our applicants weren't even native to America. Actually we only had 1 guy who was native to USA qualify for the job, everyone else was from China and India.

So there is a problem with how schools are teaching our kids. Just beause YOUR kid and YOUR district may not be that bad, doesn't mean it's the same story for everyone else. I mean you did mention that you were married and make at least a middle to upper middle class income. Well I can guarantee you, most people don't.

But FWIW, I moved back to my home town from the metro Atlanta area and they also have some very high performing schools in metro Atlanta in regards to science and technology in particular. One of the best in the nation was the Gwinnett School of Mathematics, Science and Technology. It was a public charter and now is a magnet high school.

My kid goes to a magnet high school where we live and it is one of the best in the area.

On my district, I do think it needs a lot of improvement especially in some specific high schools. They have a transformation/reform plan in place that is aiming to increase outcomes for our students who are mostly poor to working class families.

And I'm not being a "shill" for public schools. I'm just saying that due to you not having children, you are not involved in the school system of your area and so you don't know what they have available for students on all levels.

I have two children, one in elementary and one in high school and so I am much more involved and knowledgeable about what is offered in any district I live in because I know how important education is in our society today. I honestly don't like really competitive schools because I do think those schools do like you mentioned and teach kids to pass test or stress kids out about school. IMO learning should be fun but kids need to know certain skills AND how to think critically AND how to apply their learned knowledge/skills to the real world. So I ensure, no matter where I live that my kids go to the best possible options in any district I live in and if I don't see a good option in a particular district, I will move to another district. FWIW, I live in a low income neighborhood and my kids do not go to our zoned schools. They both go to magnet schools that pull students from the entire district. My son's school actually has students who come to our district from higher performing suburban districts because they do not offer a STEM high school like ours.