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Not sure it is necessary to ban that thing. But gee, I am ignorant about this issue, never heard of this burkini thing until recently, how did these Muslim women swim before?
It looks like anything can be used as an excuse of terrorist attack.
How is it a symbol of oppression? Really? It has to be explained? Do you also question whether floor length prairie skirts and butt-length long hair sported by the FLDS women in Utah is oppressive or not? Or do you think it's a choice?
The west in general needs to STOP normalizing and romanticizing these abhorrent cultural practices.
In America we would be more open to burkinis, but Europe needs to start sticking up for its cultural norms. It is worth preserving and appreciating, seeing as how it's supposedly the reason why people from all over the world are attracted there in the first place.
And, I do believe there are plenty of ways to be modest at the beach without wearing a string bikini.
These women won't be allowed to enjoy the beach at all now, where before they were at least getting to do so. It will make them retreat further from French society. If they were allowed to preserve their modesty, but still enjoy the beach and other normal parts of French society, maybe their children will be even more willing to embrace the normal culture of the French, until one day even they will be wearing normal 21st century beach wear. With the ban, there is almost no chance of that happening because there will continue to be two cultures that don't mix at all. How is that helpful?
And the "Burkini" is far from the same thing as an actual burka, which IS a symbol of oppression.
These women won't be allowed to enjoy the beach at all now, where before they were at least getting to do so. It will make them retreat further from French society. If they were allowed to preserve their modesty, but still enjoy the beach and other normal parts of French society, maybe their children will be even more willing to embrace the normal culture of the French, until one day even they will be wearing normal 21st century beach wear. With the ban, there is almost no chance of that happening because there will continue to be two cultures that don't mix at all. How is that helpful?
And the "Burkini" is far from the same thing as an actual burka, which IS a symbol of oppression.
I don't think burkini should be banned. It is unnecessary.
However, I don't think it is the westerners create two cultures for these Muslims.
These women won't be allowed to enjoy the beach at all now, where before they were at least getting to do so. It will make them retreat further from French society. If they were allowed to preserve their modesty, but still enjoy the beach and other normal parts of French society, maybe their children will be even more willing to embrace the normal culture of the French, until one day even they will be wearing normal 21st century beach wear. With the ban, there is almost no chance of that happening because there will continue to be two cultures that don't mix at all. How is that helpful?
If they weren't "allowed" to enjoy the beach at all previously because of silly dress codes requiring them to wrap themselves up in sheets, then there is something else at play here that is holding back integration in a much more meaningful way. No laws will change that. A hundred trips to the beach aren't going to fix it.
And honestly, if they can't interact in European society because of their dress code, then maybe they SHOULD feel uncomfortable and should find somewhere else to live. Cultural norms must be respected.
We should learn the lessons of Turkey and Lebanon -- Ataturk severely secularized Turkey at the beginning of the 20th century and severely criticized hijab. He knew that clothing choices MATTER.
Lebanon embraced and embraced and embraced Islamic culture to the point that the demographics flipped and it went from the Paris of the Middle East to the Middle East of the Middle East. Same people. Same race. Same ethnicity. Simply a different mindset and system of beliefs and culture.
I know who is creating the two cultures, but this only further divides and hurts the oppressed (women) more than it hurts the oppressors (men).
Like I said, I don't think banning burkini is the solution, I think it is a strange idea.
However, if banning burkini will cause terrorist attack, then it will be more difficult to convince others the religion is a religion of peace, it will be MORE difficult to convince others that majority of the Muslims are peace loving people who just want to get along with everybody.
Like I said, I don't think banning burkini is the solution, I think it is a strange idea.
However, if banning burkini will cause terrorist attack, then it will be more difficult to convince others the religion is a religion of peace, it will be MORE difficult to convince others that majority of the Muslims are peace loving people who just want to get along with everybody.
It's just like when Malala (girl who was shot and almost killed because of religious extremism) was going around saying that "the more you speak about Islam and against all Muslims, the more terrorists we create."
So. Oh. Ok. We are free to insult, denigrate and uphold the time honored tradition of lampooning every religion in the world.... EXCEPT.... the "one which should not be criticized." Got it. I guess we'll just all slowly get used to our "new normal," eh?
This type of thinking is beginning to creep slowly into the "progressive parlance" in the west and it is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE. I have zero respect for religious apologists. I have LESS than zero respect for Islamist apologists in the west, especially non-Muslims who otherwise have no problem speaking out against Christians.
If they weren't "allowed" to enjoy the beach at all previously because of silly dress codes requiring them to wrap themselves up in sheets, then there is something else at play here that is holding back integration in a much more meaningful way. No laws will change that. A hundred trips to the beach aren't going to fix it.
And honestly, if they can't interact in European society because of their dress code, then maybe they SHOULD feel uncomfortable and should find somewhere else to live. Cultural norms must be respected.
We should learn the lessons of Turkey and Lebanon -- Ataturk severely secularized Turkey at the beginning of the 20th century and severely criticized hijab. He knew that clothing choices MATTER.
Lebanon embraced and embraced and embraced Islamic culture to the point that the demographics flipped and it went from the Paris of the Middle East to the Middle East of the Middle East. Same people. Same race. Same ethnicity. Simply a different mindset and system of beliefs and culture.
Enough is enough.
I am no fan of the Muslim religion, but I do feel that the fact these women are allowed to enjoy the beach means they are the ones wearing a hijab and not a full burka in their daily lives. They are generally not the ones who turn to jihadism. I think it will backfire on them, pushing the more moderate people into the extremist position.
These people aren't going to leave. Many of them are French citizens by birth. It's a very complex situation, and I just think it's a bad move on their part. The traditionally Muslim areas with way less freedom can ban these things and get away with it because they are themselves Muslim, and willing to back it up with harsh penalties. The French are not Muslims, so it will only make these people feel marginalized and won't be backed up with harsh penalties. The people will just get more extreme.
They need to pause immigration from these countries until the ones that are there can integrate with society before adding more from countries at war. Or as I would prefer, let those refugees stay and fix their own countries.
Like I said, I don't think banning burkini is the solution, I think it is a strange idea.
However, if banning burkini will cause terrorist attack, then it will be more difficult to convince others the religion is a religion of peace, it will be MORE difficult to convince others that majority of the Muslims are peace loving people who just want to get along with everybody.
You know I am no fan of the Muslim religion. I just think the French are creating an untenable situation with this ban. They want to force secularism on the most devoutly religious people on earth who cannot take any criticism without becoming murderous, and they refuse to stop immigration at the same time. It's not a good policy because the people in their country will suffer while the politicians are able to have protection.
You know I am no fan of the Muslim religion. I just think the French are creating an untenable situation with this ban. They want to force secularism on the most devoutly religious people on earth who cannot take any criticism without becoming murderous, and they refuse to stop immigration at the same time. It's not a good policy because the people in their country will suffer while the politicians are able to have protection.
I know the point you are making. i agree with you.
There is no doubt in my mind forced diversity backfires. If I were a Muslim woman, I would swim with long sleeve shirts and pants if there is a burkini ban. I will use my behavior/action to show people that the religion is a religion of peace. In reality, respect and even acceptance is earned, not demanded.
Ban the burkini, I will behead you - this type of mentality does not help their own community. In my opinion.
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