Elizabeth Smart, feminism, and gay porn

[glass_of_merlot]

What I love about threads like these is that people I many times would disagree with all of a sudden I agree with 100 %! Every now and then that happens. It's refreshing!!

[alaskaboy]

I befriended a very promiscuous young woman a few years ago. She said about half the 20-somethings she had sex with, had erectile dysfunction (couldn't get it up) and she said it was due to these young guys watching porn 24/7. When you do this, your sexual part of your mind actually starts to re-wire itself to the point you associate sexual arousal with watching, rather than doing. A true serious phenomenon.

[Three Wolves In Snow]

Originally Posted by victorianpunk

...Okay, I go online and facebook, twitter....

That's your problem right there...if the idiots on those sites don't discourage you about our future, dear God don't go to Tumblr. You have a beef with SJWs and feminists (which I don't blame you but dude, why go to those sites and subject yourself to utter stupidity), you have seen nothing until you find yourself on Tumblr. Hell, even YouTube comments, which all by themselves are horrifically toxic more often than not, will shoot down the SJW/feminazi crowd...

Seriously, pick your battles. Most of us already know how insane the SJWs are....I question why you are trying to fight them all, singlehandedly, with your daily post complaints about them? We KNOW they are hypocritical idiots...so what are you trying to accomplish with these posts?

[gwynedd1]

So, without any other arguments the anti-porn side (and there are a lot of other valid ones, I know), doesn't the fact that a huge chunk of the market has NOTHING to do with women kind of destroy the feminist "argument" that porn is anti-woman by nature?

This is relative. I would say pron implies possibly low investment. However that seems to be generally true of hard core porn . Naturally its maladaptive for males to grow attachments to women having sex with other men. So his only interest is sex and then moving on. I see a lot of evidence of sexual turn on with underlying contempt. Again after sex with promiscuous women its not adaptive to start pouring resources into it. I would also expect the likelihood of the actual sexual pleasure going up , more or less because its reminiscent of a Chimpanzee sperm war in lieu of the lack of dedicated mates or mate guarding. So turn on and then disgust is petty viable low investment strategy. I see this pattern.

Glamour porn on the other hand seems to be a a high investment fantasy where there seems to be little evidence of anything that might lower the opinion of their desire.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by victorianpunk

Okay, I go online and facebook, twitter and the rest are all blowing up because Elizabeth Smart says her kidnapper's porn use caused him to rape her more and more....

Indeed. Many people have tried, and utterly failed, to link porn use with rape. At best they have forced together a few mangled data sets into a study correlating the two. But the dents from the forcing of the square peg through the round hole are glaring.

Correlation is not causation and it is more like that some third factor X is causing the porn use AND rape in these criminals, rather than porn use causing the rape.

In fact the use of porn is not uncommon in the REDUCTION of rape. Porn use in other studies correlates with reduced sexual violent crimes. And currently people are exploring the use of animated pseudo child porn in the reduction of the propensity for some pedophiles to seek the abuse of real children..... personally or through porn..... to satisfy their urges.

Originally Posted by victorianpunk

Or how they use to blame the fantasy game Dungeons and Dragons on suicide (it turns out kids who play RPGs are actually LESS likely to commit suicide, probably because it means they at least have some friends)

Indeed. I think this myth was propagated by a film with Tom Hanks in it that showed games like D&D pushing teenagers towards suicide and satanism. There is no evidence at all to support anything of the sort and in fact such games are linked with an improvement in many factors.... not just suicide figures..... like performance in school and more.

Originally Posted by victorianpunk

And the feminists say over and over "pornography is ownership of womyn by EVIL MEN!" and "PORN DESTROYS WOMEN!"

Yea people tend to ignore the fact that gay porn exists, or men also appear in porn, when pedaling the "women are victims" angle in the anti porn discourse. If anyone is being objectified and exploited by mainstream legal porn, it is the consumer, not the actors. Underground and illegal porn not withstanding, that is a different kettle of fishy smelling things.

Originally Posted by victorianpunk

I mean...I am straight...I am pretty sure but....but...

(wipes sweat from brow) Man that was HOT. Maybe it was just because these guys were NOT typical looking at all but...okay, maybe I am a little bisexual.

That is possible sure. But also possible is that you are merely suffering/benefiting from your mirror neurons. When you watch others have sex, even if you are not sexually attracted to them, you can still be sent into states of hotness and arousal by watching because your brain acts like it is the one having the sex itself.

The ability to be turned on by porn of people you did not think you are attracted to, is actually likely the source of many peoples confusion as to whether they are gay or bi or not. People like yourself who identify entirely as heterosexual are suddenly turned on by porn of a homosexual nature and they begin to question themselves. Often (but not always) without merit or reason.

Originally Posted by victorianpunk

Sorry, but something tells me that my enjoying "Stand at Attention" will not lead me to kidnap and rape a young girl anytime soon...

Exactly. Just like enjoying Jason Bourne movies or Assasains Creed games gives me no desire to go out killing people for money or country or fun. The attempts to link porn with rape are very very weak indeed.

Originally Posted by victorianpunk

The point is, why blame porn for something said sicko did?

Why would SHE blame it or why would anyone else do so? I think you know the answer to the latter question. People who are against porn have no arguments or evidence against it, so they will leap on ANYTHING that allows them to correlate porn with something awful. Similar to how when someone awful was an atheist, too many theists are quick to blame atheism for their crimes without actually linking the two beyond correlation.

As for why SHE would blame it.......... we are a species driven by narrative. When something that awful happens to you.... it helps one to find something to blame for it, or explain it. It is a very natural thing to do.... and may even benefit her recovery greatly.... even if the conclusions she has reached are unsubstantiated nonsense.

Originally Posted by banjomike

I doubt you were ever kidnapped at 14 and raped repeatedly.
That might have a little something to do with Smart's thoughts about the matter.

Agreed it does. Which is why her thoughts on the matter should be treated with equal measures of delicacy AND skepticism. When we undergo a horrific event we struggle as people to give it a narrative, a reason, an explanation. She has jumped on the one she has found, and it might even bring her solace to have done so.

But, her horrific situation aside, we have to stand back and objectively assess the claims that porn and rape are in any way linked. And that link, and evidence for it, is simply entirely lacking and counter evidence abounds.

Originally Posted by Ferd

and VP here wants to take pot shots at that 14 year old girl that is now speaking out....And one wonders why so few speak up and speak out...

I do not see anyone here taking shots at her for speaking out. What I see is the links she is making WHILE speaking out being treated with due and warrant skepticism. SHE believes porn is somehow the cause of, or linked to, what happened to her. Ok. She has every right to say that. OUR job as people hearing that however is to objectively evaluate the reality, or lack of it, of that link.

There is no reason we should not do that delicately of course. But there is no reason why we should not do it AT ALL either.

Originally Posted by Seagrape Grove

More than likely the scenario was that the more porn he read/watched the more sexually aroused he became and the more he raped her.

One has to wonder how likely or true that is. Do people watch porn to get aroused? Or do they get aroused and horny and then seek out porn? I do not watch porn any more myself but when I did it was certainly the latter. Feeling arousal or sexual needs led me to the porn use. Not the other way around.

We can never be sure of course, because we have no "control" where we can observe what he would have done with her without the access to porn or use of it. Would he have raped her at all? Just as much or as badly? Or somewhere in between? Who knows, we can only guess. But I would be hesitant to comment too heavily on one being significantly more "likely" than another without a firm grounding of knowledge in how porn is generally used. Let alone how it is used by violent sexual criminals.

Originally Posted by tinytrump

Personally I think porn is wrong- and porn is the causes a much less problem -- going amuck,,, there is no shutting it off, it becomes a obsession, and many become perverts.

How are you defining "many" here? Numerically? Percentage? Because there is a MASSIVE Number of people who engage in porn use and the VAST majority of them do not become anything other than who they always were. Let alone become perverts. What % of porn users do you genuinely think become perverts due to porn use? What % of them can you establish would not have done so without porn anyway?

Such statements are easy to throw out, less easy to take seriously. I am not seeing the data here, but would love to if you have any to offer.

Originally Posted by tinytrump

you do not need porn- (you as in PLURAL)

Irrelevant to the discussion. What has "need" got to do with it? I do not NEED books, computer games, cinema, sport, music, art or many other things either. But I still WANT them. "Need" has nothing to do with anything here that I can see.

Originally Posted by tinytrump

sex should be a part of love- expression of caring

No sex SHOULD be part of whatever the consenting adults engaging in it want it to be. Love or caring does not have to be anything to do with it if they do not want it to be. Sex can and should be all things to all people so long as consent is involved.

Originally Posted by tinytrump

most people in that scene do not do well mentally or emotionally

Citations needed. Citations for "most" that is. Not citations that a few unhappy people exist. Plus such citations would need to show that any lack of mental or emotional well being actually is due to porn, rather than their presence in porn being due to their lack of mental and emotional well being.

Or put shorter: Your assertion is pretty unsubstantiated so far.

Originally Posted by tinytrump

- they may get rich but still have issues

Who gets rich exactly? Certainly most porn and/or sex workers do not "get rich" at all. There are few exceptions of course but the majority of porn workers and sex workers are not paid much more than most unskilled labor in the world if you average it out against a weekly wage or monthly salary.

Originally Posted by tinytrump

makes you live in a fantasy world, not a real world.

So does hollywood, fiction novels, computer games, soap operas and much more. Whats your point?

Originally Posted by tinytrump

causes a BIG divide in couples.

It can do. But so too can religion, sport, hobbies, and much much more. Again whats your point?

Originally Posted by tinytrump

perversion never becomes less, it always gets worse

Which, even if true, is not contingent on porn at all.

Originally Posted by Snowball7

Objectifying another person's body for the express purpose of sexual gratification and release upon that person's body reduces the human being to a commodity.

So what? If that is the career they choose then it is THEIR choice to be a commodity. Also the consumer of porn is no less a commodity in the eyes of the people profiting from porn production and sale.

And what of, say, the massage industry. If I hire a man or woman to come into my house tonight and use parts of their body to bring pleasure or releif to parts of mine.... such as a back massage after a long day slumped over the office PC........... are they any less of a commodity? If so, how? If not then what is your point?

Originally Posted by Snowball7

Indeed, it is not only the acted-upon, but the actor, who reduces his or her own body to commodification, denigrating its true purpose and needs, and replacing those needs with a shallow replacement.

What "true purpose" are we speaking of here?

Also in terms of actors having sex in front of a camera could you explain to me exactly what differentiation you are making between the "actor" and the "acted upon" as I am not seeing the distinction.

Originally Posted by Snowball7

It also makes people murder their own unborn children, as if they were mere unwanted objects, disposable property.

Except that is not what they are doing at all. They are terminating pregnancies that may lead to a child. They are not terminating a child. Big difference.

Originally Posted by Snowball7

humanity will face its own extinction

Loving your unsubstantaited hyperbole here.

Originally Posted by Snowball7

His consumption of pornography anesthetized his conscience against the feelings of his victim.

And your evidence for your armchair psychological evaluation is what exactly????? Because I am not seeing any here so far.

Originally Posted by Snowball7

With pornography, it does not matter if the people who perform it are "willing" participants.

Except yes it does matter. Maybe not to you, but that just tells us about you and who you are.

Originally Posted by Goodnight

Professionals indicate otherwise, there is a connection to a certain segment and pornography and many are addicted.

Addiction in our society is a problem in and of itself however. It is not limited to porn and not related to it per se.

Those against something.... be it porn or alcohol or something else.... will of course jump on examples of people addicted to it as if it is an argument against it. Especially when, like with porn, there are no coherent actual arguments against the morality or ethics of it.

But I think those narratives harm the discourse. The problem of addiction all too often is one where the thing someone is addicted to...... porn, gambling, reality TV, or whatever....... is a symptom of a problem and not in and of itself the problem. And this misdiagnosis can serve only to hamper the treatment and rehabilitation of people who have the issue.

Originally Posted by TXNGL

Why are you flipping out because Elizabeth Smart feels that porn contributed to her abuse? She was the one that went through this hell, not you or I.

True but that does not negate the fact that when a false and potentially harmful opinion becomes high profile, that we should not stand up and point out that it is false or harmful.

When people linked Islam to 9-11 for example, there was a sharp increase in racially and religiously motivated hate crimes against innocent Muslims.

Similarly when we see something horrific happen to a beautiful and innocent 14 year old........ and someone links that horror to porn........... should we stand back and allow whatever back lash porn actors and producers might suffer socially, financially, physically or all of the above?

Or should we take the statements and ideas put forward......... that porn is linked with sex crimes........ and evaluate them objectively and honestly and either A) Agree porn is a problem and find ways to solve that problem or B) Find that porn is entirely innocent and rebut false assertions to the contrary?

I have seen NO arguments against the morality or ethics of pornography that have merit, and even less credibility in the arguments linking sex crimes to porn use.

And if my pointing out these facts is painful to someone like Elizabeth Smart then I genuinely feel pain for that.... but I will still point those facts out because it is the right thing to do.

Originally Posted by Goodnight

Porn can have a recreational use just like alcohol but there are people that can become addicted and have their lives adversely effected on their lives.

So "can" 1000s of other things. I do not think anyone is denying that this CAN happen. But it is not clear what the point actually is that is being made by those who are pointing this out.

ANYTHING that a person does, is, consumes, or obtains CAN become an addiction or an adversity. There is no point singling out any one of those 1000s of things.... in this case porn....... and act like pointing this out is to be making a relevant point.

Originally Posted by Goodnight

Another downside of porn

Divorce rates double for married couples who start watching porn, U. of Oklahoma research finds - The College Fix

This is another area where Correlation and causation have to be explored. For one VERY obvious reason that I hope you do not feel I am insulting your intelligence by deigning to point it out. I do not intend that.

The obvious point is that many people turn to porn BECAUSE their marital life is going down hill. So yes porn use could be a PREDICTOR of a marital failure, but many people... mainly those with an anti pornography agenda......... will misconstrue that correlation quite readily and willfully to claim that the porn use CAUSED The marital break down or divorce.

So you open by calling it a "downside of porn" but nothing in the link actually supports that position. If porn was causing marital break down or divorce then you could validly call it a downside. But if porn is a SYMPTOM of an already declining marital situation....... you could not.

Originally Posted by glass_of_merlot

If you already are a sexual predator porn might be a trigger?

In some cases that may be a valid evaluation but I am skeptical about how often it is. That type of person will have all kinds of triggers. And in fact some research is being done to use porn to TREAT those people, not trigger them. The use of animated pseudo child porn for example is currently being explored as a treatment option for pedophiles with predatory tendencies or desires.

But such a dilute and statistically vague might can do little more than be pedantically correct. "if you are already a sexual predator" then anything "might" be a trigger. A few glasses of alcohol. The reduction in clothing people wear on a hot day. Certain words. People dancing in night clubs. A certain smell. ANYTHING "might" be a trigger.

And as with many points that are pedantically correct only..... they are diluted into irrelevancy alas.

Originally Posted by glass_of_merlot

What I love about threads like these is that people I many times would disagree with all of a sudden I agree with 100 %! Every now and then that happens. It's refreshing!!

Indeed. I find I have more agreement with much (but not all by far) of what the OP says in this thread than I would find if I added together ALL the other posts I have ever read by him before.

Just goes to show that there are points of commonality between everyone in this world. No matter how diverse or divergent they might be on any continuum you measure them by.

Originally Posted by alaskaboy

I befriended a very promiscuous young woman a few years ago. She said about half the 20-somethings she had sex with, had erectile dysfunction (couldn't get it up) and she said it was due to these young guys watching porn 24/7.

Well if you do ANYTHING 24/7 you are likely to end up with erectile dysfunction so I will assume your sentence here is just hyperbole.

The "no fap" movement and a few others have indeed tried on occasion to link excessive porn use with erectile dysfunction but the evidence is very thin on the ground.

Most erectile dysfunction is actually caused by nothing more than performance anxiety and porn is far from the only source of that in young men. We have a very sexualised culture where many consider your worth "as a man" to be connected with your sexual abilities and performance. So any young man going into a sexual situation is likely to feel (or in this case not feel) the effects of those pressures.

Is porn partially to blame for this? I would imagine so yes. But even without porn the sexual attitudes of our culture would likely be having just the same effects as the ones your alleged contact anecdotes for you.

Originally Posted by alaskaboy

When you do this, your sexual part of your mind actually starts to re-wire itself to the point you associate sexual arousal with watching, rather than doing. A true serious phenomenon.

The evidence for that is VERY thin actually and is just a myth perpetuated by the aforementioned No Fap community. It is usually pseudo scientific language dressed up to sound convincing and true.

And quite often people pedalling it are very vague. They will simply say something like "Watching porn re-wires your brain!" but never tell you EXACTLY how, where, why or what is re-wired.

Well get this. Reading this sentence has re-wired your brain. Fact. So simply saying something re-wires your brain is to essentially say nothing coherent at all. It depends WHAT is being re-wired and how.

All that said, while I have nothing against porn I have MUCH against excessive use of it. Because excessive use of ANYTHING is a bad think. That is pretty much what excessive means. Moderation in all things is a useful key in life. I can think of nothing that is good when used to excess. Even water, the very elixir of life, is a poison to us in excess.

So simply be wary..... the conflation of the problem of excess with the use of anything (in this case porn) is nothing more than an indication as to what a persons agenda is. Excessive use of porn IS bad. That does not mean at any level PORN is bad. Never lose sight of the difference and the No Fap movement types will never mislead and fool you.

[calipoppy]

***Newsflash*** Mormon girl hates porn

[shadowne]

Don't most MTGOW hate feminists? After that "joke" thread you posted last week I would think most people would try to stay clear.

[Podo944]

Originally Posted by Seagrape Grove

From Elizabeth Smart's perspective her abuser became more sexually aroused by the porn and intensified the sexual abuse. More than likely the scenario was that the more porn he read/watched the more sexually aroused he became and the more he raped her.

Of course...I don't understand how this is not obvious.