To those who have served in the US Military (CNN, treason, atrocities)

[denverian]

If they were of enlistment age today, no. I'd highly discourage it. I strongly disagree with how this administration has used and abused our military and no longer trust that my country wouldn't send me into an unnecessary war, as I believed back when I was active duty.

[TKramar]

Originally Posted by Greatday

Don't have to. Comes from personal knowledge.

You do not have uneducated flying stealth bombers or F18's.

You don't have uneducated commanding a nuclear aircraft carrier. Or, repairing the nuclear reactor.

You don't have uneducated putting in fireing solutions to a ground array

You don't have uneducated setting up and running triage centers or caring for personell on a field of battle

ETC

The first two are officers. The second two are enlisted. Officers do require a college education before being accepted into an OCS. But the enlisted people might be trained on the job. Even being trained on the job, you might think that was sufficient to get a job on the outside...but it's not so. I would have had to go right back to school to work as an electrician or electronics tech. I know. I tried. The electrician was two more years of schooling before I could have been employed in that field.

[KevK]

Originally Posted by chielgirl

I'd favor a draft if ALL kids at 18 were required to serve. That is, the president's kids, every single representative's kids, every rich person's kids as well as the rest of us.

It might be a way to deter wars if it were across the board.

The problem with that is this: There are about 2 million people in the Armed Forces and that includes active, reserve and retired. There are probably about 22 million people that turn 18 every year. It would break the country to have a military that size.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by Greatday

The best place to get the very data you asked for is from the source / the employer

Maybe this is the reason why American journalism is not of the same quality as it was back in the days of the Watergate affair?

[Loujr]

Well Tricky D, I came from a middle class family and pretty much paid for my own educaton between student loans and summer jobs in a factory (opportunity is a nice part of being an American). Because of my education (or perhaps it was dumb luck, the bureaucracy or a combination of the three) the U.S. Army trained me as a Medic ... however my superiors let it be known in no uncertain terms that I and my fellow troops were a soldiers first and clerks, medics, cooks, aircraft mechanics, etc. second. I wasn't given many options but one was, the opportunity to carry a .45 or an M16. When I asked if I could use both, my First Shirt (er, 1st. Sgt., AKA GOD) gave me a look that made me think he was going to adopt me, make me a general, kiss me, pin a medal on me, or maybe all of the above. He just told me If I could hump both, plus my other gear, I could. I did. The Medical Corps' motto was (still is?) "Conserve The Fighting Strength". To me carrying as much weaponry as possible was just as important as my medical equipment and my attitude was not unusual. The Army I knew consisted of conscripts and volunteers from all economic spectrums although I never knew any senator's sons. There was a guy who was drafted by a professional baseball team as well as the U.S. Army and another who was a convicted criminal (armed robery as I recall) and given the choice of prison or the service, in a squad I was in. The key word here in the U.S. is, 'Opportunity'. If I were Dutch and an ally (?) I'd be damn greatful for an American and British presence in your part of the world. As I recall, (I wasn't there) American and the Britts, kicked the crap out of German troops and liberated your country before eather of us were borne and at great human and material loss to our troops thus giving you (collectively) the opportunity to be so critical of us. Our presence continues to give you the opportunity to not come under the domination of less benevolent countries. And here I thought you were just some dumb kid who plays too many video games, sorry.
You are welcome. Lou

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by Loujr

Our presence continues to give you the opportunity to not come under the domination of less benevolent countries. And here I thought you were just some dumb kid who plays too many video games, sorry.

Right, so Americans can do no wrong?
Your army and government are transparent to its citizens and never lied to their own citizens?
Or their allies?

[tinman01]

Originally Posted by TKramar

You forget WHO gets to determine whether the order is lawful or not. The same people giving the orders.

That is a big negative....
An admiral says petty officer tinman I want you to rape then murder that woman.
Sir I am sorry but I can not comply with your order. It is asking me to commit an unlawful act.
Lt. Crap head says: Petty officer tinman that crowd is in the act of an unlawful protest you will take your weapon off safe and spray that crowd.
Sir I am sorry but I can not comply with your order it is unlawful.
Its that simple. I may be court martialed for refusing but the court martial will then determine who was right and who was wrong. I can live with a court martial. Hosing a crowd of rowdy idiots with a 30 cal? No not unless they themselves starting shooting first.

[tinman01]

Originally Posted by TKramar

The first two are officers. The second two are enlisted. Officers do require a college education before being accepted into an OCS. But the enlisted people might be trained on the job. Even being trained on the job, you might think that was sufficient to get a job on the outside...but it's not so. I would have had to go right back to school to work as an electrician or electronics tech. I know. I tried. The electrician was two more years of schooling before I could have been employed in that field.

Could that be because the codes for civilian application are completely different than military?
In my mos there is very little civilian application for sub hunters, my second mos the applications are there but I chose not to get shot at for a living.

[Convert 54]

As for us, our days of combat are over. Our swords are rust. Our guns will thunder no more. The vultures that once wheeled over our heads must be buried with their prey. Whatever of glory must be won in the council or the closet, never again in the field. I do not repine. We have shared the incommunicable experience of war; we have felt, we still feel, the passion of life to its top.

In my youth and passion the fight against communist tyranny was paramount within this country.
Into the breach I went and with no thought of personal safety at the time.
Off to places with strange oriental names where I saw other men die. Men with lives before them, lives of hope and and anticipation. Not just American men but Vietnamese men of both sides. Furious, vicious little affairs in rice paddys or forest glades. Places where not a lot of men died but small numbers of men died, and I helped them to die.
Idealistic, yes. Patriotic, again yes?
I survived never knowing the anguish and pain of my parents, each time the phone rang or an unexpected knock at the door.
After all Father was a veteran of Normandy, the Hedge rows. He was at the liberation of Paris. He fought in the Hurtgeon Forest and was at the Bulge. HE saw the great spires of the Remegan bridge. Thrice wounded he was, and never did he consider the pain and anguish of his mother and father, the strange car coming up the country road or the phone call from town,
After all, grandfather was a veteran of the trenches of France, the horrors of the war to end all wars, Chateaus-Thierry and Belleua woods
and it was excitement beyond anything an Iowa farm boy could imagine
and how could he contemplate the pain and anguish of HIS grandparents each time the post man rode down the sunny lane to the old farm spread in rural Indiana during the great civil war
For he was young and patriotic also and he had went of to the sound of drums and shared the incommunicable experience of war. He was there at Thompson station, Peach Tree creek, Reseca and Look out Mountain.
He had been in the trenches before Atlanta as that proud and noble city had fallen.
He had watched the burning of Columbia, Fought and saw men die at Averesyboro and Bentonville. How could he have known , How could I have known.

And in my middle age, I understood the pain and anguish of all the previous I have mentioned above as I and my wife dreaded the unexpected phone call, or the strange knock at the door .

Twice since 2001 I have watched the life spirit of my wife drain from her each time there was an out of area call on the phone or we heard a car door close in the street.

Twice I was not the strong man of the family but was the proud but worried father. Once with a son in Afghanistan and once with a daughter in Iraq.
And today as I watch the news and it list the killed in Iraq, I cry, not only for those men and women, but for men whose names are now lost to the ages.
And I cry that mine returned but do also cry for those fathers and mothers who will for ever be heartbroken.
And now I try to be a good man and honor all those in uniform for they are as I once was............
and all of us have one absolute feeling of pride and love of this country and all its Americans and I cant ever take that away nor would I want to.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by Convert 54

And now I try to be a good man and honor all those in uniform for they are as I once was............
and all of us have one absolute feeling of pride and love of this country and all its Americans and I cant ever take that away nor would I want to.

My grandfather an Indonesian fought for the Dutch against the Japanese and most of the Indonesians simply because he is a Christian and they were not.
I come from a long line of warriors, but the Dutch government ordered my grandfather to come to Holland with the promise that one day we could all return.
This is not the case; the Dutch government had betrayed us because if they had not, we would never have left our island. We would never have left the majority of our families behind, while the strongest and most capable members were ordered to go to the Netherlands.
I mean patriotism is fine and all, but I hold no love for governments who lie to their own citizens/soldiers.