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Old 04-12-2019, 03:17 AM
 
19,573 posts, read 8,459,932 times
Reputation: 10096

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Quote:
Originally Posted by English Dave View Post
I recognised it as I watched Trump's campaign in 2016. Folks are fed up of seeing the minority prosper, while the majority are left picking at the crumbs. Like Americans, I have seen the change in my lifetime.

Used to be ordinary folks were full of hope for a better future. It was there to be grabbed if you worked hard. I grew up in the English version of the projects. Ordinary working class people striving to make a better life. The chance was there with hard work, and I took it. Had my first mortgage when I was 24 years old. Moved upwards, had a job with a good pension, and lived my life.

All I want for the young of England is the same chance for them. It is harder than it's ever been, and most only dream of owning their own home. Instead, they are stuck paying massive rents, for those that can even afford that.

The EU has done nothing for them. All they witness is invasion of their towns by foreigners, and decline in their surroundings. These folks want out of the EU, and won't give up till they get it. The politicians have opened Pandora's Box, and are going to see major change down the line in how folks vote. All respect for politicians is gone, and anger is simmering under the surface.
What are the chances of violence in the aftermath of this open deceit and betrayal by your Parliament to the nation? Holding them accountable by voting clearly has not worked.

 
Old 04-12-2019, 03:41 AM
 
51,580 posts, read 25,561,093 times
Reputation: 37775
Anger is simmering because things have changed and the future is looking grim for working people. Those with limited skills and education are becoming near unemployable due to automation, etc.

The rich are getting richer. In the U.S., the wealth disparity is the largest it's been since the 20s. The wealthy have convinced the U.S. working class to blame it on the Mexicans, Muslims, the media, ...

In the UK they blame it on the EU. Brexit was not led by working class folks. The leaders were well-to-do folks who sold it based on lies. They skipped out until recently where they seem to be popping up all over the place demanding the "will of the people."

Guess who is going to take Brexit in the shorts? Is it the wealthy who have already protected their money from the Brexit fall out? Or the the working types, who thanks to the economic slow down will be working for whatever the wealthy begrudgingly pay?

As to increasing the funding for NHS, etc., good luck. "The economy is contracting" will be the new mantra.
 
Old 04-12-2019, 03:42 AM
 
1,877 posts, read 670,372 times
Reputation: 1072
A majority of people in the UK now oppose Brexit according to all the polls, a lot has changed in 3 years with many of the leave campaign promises being exposed as unworkable.
 
Old 04-12-2019, 03:48 AM
 
Location: England
26,273 posts, read 8,389,318 times
Reputation: 31334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartacus713 View Post
What are the chances of violence in the aftermath of this open deceit and betrayal by your Parliament to the nation? Holding them accountable by voting clearly has not worked.
I don't know to be honest. The English are not prone to riot. We had some a number of years ago over the shooting by police of a man in London. He was a career criminal, but his family claimed he was killed unlawfully. A gun was recovered nearby when he was shot, in a sock. The police said he had thrown it from the vehicle. Anyway this caused riots by mainly young minorities. They robbed shops of essentials like cell phones and sneakers.

For the older citizens, I would think riots are unlikely, but it's hard to say for sure. It depends what comes next. If we remain in the EU beyond the month of May, we will have to take part in Euro elections. This will bring politicians on to the streets campaigning. I would think Tory representatives will be very wary of going door to door canvasing for votes, don't you?

If a second vote for EU membership is forced on us, then the politicians will have problems on their hands. They are very nervous of going out among the public right now. It would be a long campaign, and this is when public anger could erupt. Politicians will surround themselves with security, which will look real bad to the public. Plus the police will be nervous, and may get over excited. Folks here don't take kindly to being pushed around by unarmed police.

Then, a General Election may be forced on us. This is when Nigel Farage and his new Brexit party will come to the fore. Angry voters will be looking to just where they can place their vote. Many politicians of both Tory and Labour leanings will see their careers come to an abrupt end. Change is coming.
 
Old 04-12-2019, 03:56 AM
 
1,877 posts, read 670,372 times
Reputation: 1072
There is a danger that some far right brexit supporters will get violent but we can't just be held hostage by that threat. During the last referendum campaign an MP was murdered by a right wing brexiteer so we do have to be aware of that possibility.
 
Old 04-12-2019, 04:03 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
26,941 posts, read 13,188,136 times
Reputation: 19183
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
Anger is simmering because things have changed and the future is looking grim for working people. Those with limited skills and education are becoming near unemployable due to automation, etc.
Which is why we don't need unskilled and semi-skilled workers from the EU multiplying the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould

The rich are getting richer. In the U.S., the wealth disparity is the largest it's been since the 20s. The wealthy have convinced the U.S. working class to blame it on the Mexicans, Muslims, the media, ...
The UK already has significant tax rates and has closed many loopholes regarding the rich, as well as looking to impliment a digital tax on companies such as Amazon in order to help the High Street. Furthermore workers rights have been upheld by British courts in relation to those working for online disruptor companies such as Uber and Deliveroo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould

In the UK they blame it on the EU. Brexit was not led by working class folks. The leaders were well-to-do folks who sold it based on lies. They skipped out until recently where they seem to be popping up all over the place demanding the "will of the people."
The left was calling for Britain to leave the common market back in the 70's and 80's, with people like Barbara Castle, Micahael Foot, Denis Skinner, Arthur Scargill and even Jeremy Corbyn publically calling fir us to leave.

Many UKIP candidates were working class, and people such as David Davis came from single parent backgrounds and grew up in working class area, and even joined the SAS Reserves (21 SAS) later in life.

Liam Fox gre up in a council estate in East Kilbride, Scotland, and attended the local state school, he later went on to become a medical doctor before entering parliament.

By contrast the Eton educated and Oxbridge educated David Cameron and George Osborne led the remain campaign, indeed Boris Johnson was the only one of the so called three brexiteers who came from a privileged background, the other two Davis and Fox certainly did not.

As for Farage he was never an MP, and his background is mixed, indeed his father who was an alcholic left the family when Farage was 5 years old, and Farage went straight from school in to work rather than university.

As for Corbyn he lived in a very nice house and had a very comfortable middle class upbringing at Yew Tree Manor a 17th-century brick farmhouse that was once part of the Duke of Sutherland's Lilleshall estate in Shropshire. Corbyn attended Castle House School, an independent (private) preparatory school near Newport, Shropshire, before attending the Adams' Grammar School, which is an extremely good school, although this didn't stop Corbyn from doing very poorly in his exams, and is only other education was enrolling in a Trade Union course at North London Polytechnic which he dropped out of after a year. Corbyn's lacklustre Brexit campaign was as good as his exam results, and as someone who had been so critical of the EU in the past and had been in the hard left when they were committed to leaving in the early 80's, he was hardly a credible voice.

So to paint Brexit as some kind of one party or one class over another is nonsense, there were plenty of working class, middle class and upper class people of all political persuasions with differeing views.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould

Guess who is going to take Brexit in the shorts? Is it the wealthy who have already protected their money from the Brexit fall out? Or the the working types, who thanks to the economic slow down will be working for whatever the wealthy begrudgingly pay?
A lot of the wealthy in Britain are foreign, lots of the big houses are owned by Russian Oligarchs, Middle Eastern oil wealth and people who have homes across the world.

Brexit is simply going to mean more trade outside the EU, which has been an ongoing for the last few decades which have seen UK trade with the EU fall from around 60% to around 40% as trade outside the EU has grown due to a relaxation of WTO rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould

As to increasing the funding for NHS, etc., good luck. "The economy is contracting" will be the new mantra.
The idea is to broker an agreement which is what May is trying to do, and the argument is one of whether to leave the EU but stay in the customs union or not, and even if we do stay in a customs union it is something we can later decide to leave.

We can leave the EU in a number of ways that don't involve a no-deal and can also seek a trade agreement with the EU, as well as importing and exporting more with new markets and under new agreements.

This is not the end of the world, it's merely a case of what kind of trading agreement and relationship we have with the EU.

Last edited by Brave New World; 04-12-2019 at 04:42 AM..
 
Old 04-12-2019, 04:09 AM
 
5,606 posts, read 3,486,517 times
Reputation: 7413
Quote:
Originally Posted by MnM258 View Post
There is a danger that some far right brexit supporters will get violent but we can't just be held hostage by that threat. During the last referendum campaign an MP was murdered by a right wing brexiteer so we do have to be aware of that possibility.
Thomas Mair had a history of mental health problems and links to Far Right groups in America and Britain such as the National Front.
It is disingenuous to say he was a right-wing Brexiteer.
As it is to say all people who voted for Brexit are right-wing and against it left-wing.
Large numbers of traditional Labour supporters voted for Brexit.
 
Old 04-12-2019, 04:15 AM
 
Location: England
26,273 posts, read 8,389,318 times
Reputation: 31334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roscoe Conkling View Post
Thomas Mair had a history of mental health problems and links to Far Right groups in America and Britain such as the National Front.
It is disingenuous to say he was a right-wing Brexiteer.
As it is to say all people who voted for Brexit are right-wing and against it left-wing.
Large numbers of traditional Labour supporters voted for Brexit.
You're right Roscoe. I have spent most of my life voting for the left leaning Labour party. I didn't vote for the Tories until they promised a vote on EU membership. I had to hold my nose while doing it. My old dad would turn in his grave......
 
Old 04-12-2019, 04:21 AM
 
1,877 posts, read 670,372 times
Reputation: 1072
He was found to be sane at the time of the murder in the trial, they found no evidence of diminished responsibility due to insanity.

He was definitely far right with his connections to groups like the EDL, he was also asupporter of Brexit, that's the reason he targeted Jo Cox, her support for staying in the EU. He was even shouting stuff like 'keep Britain independent' during the attack.

So if he was far right and he was a brexiteer I'd say that makes him a far right brexiteer.
 
Old 04-12-2019, 04:25 AM
 
5,606 posts, read 3,486,517 times
Reputation: 7413
Quote:
Originally Posted by MnM258 View Post
He was found to be sane at the time of the murder in the trial, they found no evidence of diminished responsibility due to insanity.

He was definitely far right with his connections to groups like the EDL, he was also asupporter of Brexit, that's the reason he targeted Jo Cox, her support for staying in the EU. He was even shouting stuff like 'keep Britain independent' during the attack.

So if he was far right and he was a brexiteer I'd say that makes him a far right brexiteer.
Exactly.
He was a far-right Brexiteer not a right-wing Brexiteer as you wrote.
Glad you understood the crucial difference and corrected yourself.
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