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It's amazing that we're still being forced to restate all these facts 8 years later, isn't it?
when i came on this forum in 2010 i honestly believed all it would take would be a few months of presenting the facts with support ( hopefully in a non-snarky way ) and the topic would die out.
Find it stupid otherwise, I don't need to prove myself and have no need to save face.
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Originally Posted by wrecking ball
any question about obama's eligibility due to the facts of his father's citizenship were directly addressed in ankeny v daniels. from the decision:
On April 1, 2010, the Supreme Court of Indiana rejected, without comment, a request to consider the case.
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Originally Posted by wrecking ball
"Based upon the language of Article II, Section 1, Clause 4 and the guidance provided by Wong Kim Ark, we conclude that persons born within the borders of the United States are “natural born Citizens” for Article II, Section 1 purposes, regardless of the citizenship of their parents." this ruling was cited in multiple birther lawsuit decisions. :
Yes, but were they in other state supreme courts or in the Federal Supreme Court?
"Attempts have been made from time to time in Congress to restrict birthright citizenship, either via statutory redefinition of the term jurisdiction, or by overriding both the Wong Kim Ark ruling and the Citizenship Clause itself through an amendment to the Constitution, but no such proposal has been enacted."
Like I think someone else stated earlier, we need some d*** reform on this issue. There is too much 'wiggle room' with how this is set up, and IMO, that is unlawful.
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Originally Posted by wrecking ball
the facts of obama's birth were confirmed by the HI department of health, the highest authority for verifying births within the state, in october 2008 under republican governor linda lingle. this thwarts the idea that it was a forged document. correct, the honolulu advertiser and star bulletin. the notices are available on microfilm in multiple libraries across the US including the library of congress ( images easily found online ). the honolulu advertiser has stated that the information came directly from vital records, this fact is confirmed by the section header.
Yes, that dose help. Obama giving some of these examples, and others, in 2009 would have also helped.
Also, the HI department of health is only at the state level. Yes, it is in the state of question, but far right had mentioned the CIA and/or FBI keeping an eye on his father. I think if an investigation was to happen at the federal level they would have more access to these record. I think that would finally help either 'put the rumors to rest" or help to find out how Obama 'slipped through the cracks.'
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Originally Posted by wrecking ball
trump had claimed.....
I'm sorry, but once again I will not take a politician as a reputable source. I know why you went this direction but I still reject his team as being IMO, professional.
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Originally Posted by wrecking ball
i have not done that. i have specifically stated that it is racist to hold a different standard for a black man to prove the facts of his birth than a white man. i've cited the identical release of records between obama and romney ( plus cruz and trump )as support of this point.
This was my slip-up. I should have wrote many instead of everyone. Even outside this thread I have been accused of being a racist for questioning this, just as many others have been too. I am opened mind enough to be proven wrong about his legitimacy. However, I still don't believe, although it can be, it is a matter of racism to question his legitimacy.
The birther claims will never die out, as long as Obama is alive.
Unfortunately there are a lot of racists in the U.S., and they just can't stand the fact that we have a black President. All the apologists in this thread are basically Exhibit A of the inherent racial bias.
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I would like highly trained investigators and the court (mature supreme court judges) to figure out the issue and 'put it to bed' or fix the reasons why Obama 'slipped through the cracks'. Then, reconstruct the law in accordance with their findings.
-This is what we are debating, the qualified part!!!
-See, it makes a big difference, right?
Several of the cases were appealed to the Supreme Court. They were all dismissed. What some would have us believe is that a Justice like Scalia would find merit in the fact that Obama was not a qualified citizen, but would dismiss a case before him without comment.
Several of the cases were appealed to the Supreme Court. They were all dismissed. What some would have us believe is that a Justice like Scalia would find merit in the fact that Obama was not a qualified citizen, but would dismiss a case before him without comment.
No Supreme Court Justice would find any merit in that claim. Because it is utterly without merit.
The real scoop is that George W. Bush is actually the son of Queen Elizabeth born in Windsor Castle and installed as the prince of America.
Or nobody ever questioned the birthplace of a President prior to our first black President. Must be a coincidence . . .
Like I think someone else stated earlier, we need some d*** reform on this issue. There is too much 'wiggle room' with how this is set up, and IMO, that is unlawful.
ankeny v daniels was the best chance ( IMO ) of the birthers getting something before the SCOTUS in obama's case. unfortunately the birthers dropped the ball and didn't follow thru. if they had tho i can find no reason why they would not have upheld the previous decision.
i had wished that a challenge to cruz would have made it to the SCOTUS ( trump had standing on that one ). my money, in that hypothetical, would be the SCOTUS ruling that "natural born citizen" equals "citizen at birth".
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Obama giving some of these examples, and others, in 2009 would have also helped.
obama provided his state issued certified COLB and made it available for inspection. to require him to do more to prove the facts of his birth sets a double standard.
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Also, the HI department of health is only at the state level.
when it comes to vital records the state is the highest authority. they are entrusted with maintaining vital records, not the federal government.
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... but far right had mentioned the CIA and/or FBI keeping an eye on his father.
if they were or weren't doesn't change the relevant facts of obama's birth.
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I think if an investigation was to happen at the federal level they would have more access to these record.
in such an investigation they'd contact the HI department of health and would require proper authority.
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I think that would finally help either 'put the rumors to rest" ....
that's what the birthers said about the "long-form" birth certificate. it's release increased birtherism thanks to joe arpaio and the comically incompetent "cold case posse" ( who still claim to be investigating ).
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I'm sorry, but once again I will not take a politician as a reputable source.
good! i don't believe trump either. it's my belief he was conflating "his investigators" with jerome corsi and mike zullo or he was completely talking BS. either way he never produced anything to back his claim of investigators.
i'd also point out that my claims on birtherism are not dependent on "because obama said so".
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However, I still don't believe, although it can be, it is a matter of racism to question his legitimacy.
do you believe it is racist to require a different standard of proof for a black person than a white person?
obama provided his state issued certified COLB and made it available for inspection. to require him to do more to prove the facts of his birth sets a double standard.
I don't completely agree. Let's put this under a 'white light' and hopefully I can show things better. Say a white liberal women on the east coast married a western Russian man, and had a child. This Russian man happened to be part of the KGB. This child came into contact with other liberal Russians from time to time. When he was older he spent time with them and wrote a book about his father. When he grew up he was in politics and lend towards the left. I think I, and many others, would like some more digging on that individual than say Ben Carson. For many, I think that it is more of an issue of nationality than race.
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Originally Posted by wrecking ball
when it comes to vital records the state is the highest authority. they are entrusted with maintaining vital records, not the federal government.if they were or weren't doesn't change the relevant facts of obama's birth.in such an investigation they'd contact the HI department of health and would require proper authority.
I have to disagree here as well. I think federal records may hold information on their parents where about-s at all or at least various times. Also, an investigation would look at the authenticity of said documents, all of them, not just the birth certificate and the credibility of correlating sources. I don't think HIDH has done this. If they have please give me a site.
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Originally Posted by wrecking ball
good! i don't believe trump either. it's my belief he was conflating "his investigators" with jerome corsi and mike zullo or he was completely talking BS. either way he never produced anything to back his claim of investigators. i'd also point out that my claims on birtherism are not dependent on "because obama said so".
Personally, I am happy to hear this and also it is appreciated.
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Originally Posted by wrecking ball
do you believe it is racist to require a different standard of proof for a black person than a white person?
Obviously not, that would be dumb. I guess with this question you are getting at the main question of the thread, which I disagree with. For me it is simple science.
Experiments typically include controls, which are designed to minimize the effects of variables other than the single independent variable. This increases the reliability of the results, often through a comparison between control measurements and the other measurements. Scientific controls are a part of the scientific method. Ideally, all variables in an experiment are controlled (accounted for by the control measurements) and none are uncontrolled.
You have too many variables with Obama. In turn you can just say people are requiring different standard of proof with him based of race and be correct. As said earlier, this would have worked with Ben Carson or even Robin Kelly, but not Obama. For many, I think that it is more of an issue of nationality than race.
I don't completely agree. Let's put this under a 'white light' and hopefully I can show things better. Say a white liberal women on the east coast married a western Russian man, and had a child. This Russian man happened to be part of the KGB. This child came into contact with other liberal Russians from time to time. When he was older he spent time with them and wrote a book about his father. When he grew up he was in politics and lend towards the left. I think I, and many others, would like some more digging on that individual than say Ben Carson. For many, I think that it is more of an issue of nationality than race.
[...]
You have too many variables with Obama. In turn you can just say people are requiring different standard of proof with him based of race and be correct. As said earlier, this would have worked with Ben Carson or even Robin Kelly, but not Obama. For many, I think that it is more of an issue of nationality than race.
In your example, is the white liberal women giving birth in the United States. Although not required is she a US citizen herself. If you answer yes to the first the rest is immaterial on the question of eligibility for the child to run for President.
The rest may inform you as to whether or not you want to support the child's candidacy, but it doesn't change the child's constitutional eligibility.
There is only one variable with Obama and every other President born since the adoption of the Constitution. Was he born in the United States? Answer Yes; that makes his nationality American, just like every other President.
Because it's being pushed by racists trying to de-legitimize the first African American president. There was zero indication that Obama wasn't born in the U.S.; it's just red meat for the racist/nativist crowd, who can't stand that a black man is President.
If you're a birther apologist, you're a racist, or incredibly ignorant. Simple as that.
Trump's claims about Ted Cruise were equally idiotic. I wouldn't call them "racist", because they weren't claims intended for the KKK crowd and other core Trump supporters on the alt right; it's just more Trump nativist nonsense.
Sure didn't take long for someone to jump in to say that questioning Obama's birthplace is "racist" just because he's black. (This was the second post in this thread.)
I guess anyone who wants to be assured that the Constitution was followed in the requirement that a president be born in this country is "racist" if said president is black. Forgotten is that it was the Clinton camp that first introduced the idea that Obama was born in Kenya and by the laws in effect in 1961 if this were true Obama was not even a citizen. Hillary felt that 2008 belonged to her but along comes this upstart junior senator from IL with limited political experience and upset her apple cart. The questions that were raised and series of events that have transpired along this line over the years do give pause to wonder if everything really was on the up and up.
All water under the bridge now.
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