The case for Universal Health Care In the U.S (salary, middle east)

[TristansMommy]

This is a great link that debunks many of the myths that make some fear a national health system. Good reading!

The Case for Universal Health Care in the United States

[geeoro]

Thanks for this. I will read it and get back to you.

[geeoro]

I have read this article and it shows that UHC wins in every dept. Even with these figures shown here and the Poll taken, you will still get people on here plucking figures out of the air to dispell UHC. Maybe through self interest or even the interest of family members who are Doctors worried about losing income. This article shows factual reasons for a UHC but this will still not change the present mind set of some Americans about the Health Industry in America. As they say "you can lead a horse to water......"

[Debera109]

To start with this issue, you need to decide if everyone is "entitled" to government sponsored healthcare. Is it a right of citizenship as suggested by UHC proponents?

Do you think it is a "right", in the same way that every child deserves an education? We pay taxes to ensure all children receive an education, but our school system is certainly not without it's problems.

Just because we have universal health care (in whatever form that takes) doesn't mean you'll have a healthcare utopia. Look at the emergency room death rates in the European/Canadian models ... people dying because the wait is up to 12 hours to be seen by a doctor!

Also, I have a problem with the stats listed in this article for longevity. Did they factor in the rising level of obesity related disease and deaths for the decline? Aren't we now the fattest people in the world? Is the problem really a personal life choice problem, rather than healthcare? Also, immunizations ... did they factor in the number of illegal immigrants which skew any meaningful data?

Our current system certainly needs changes, but emulating the Canadian/European models is not something I would want, nor do I think it would be beneficial down the road.

And lastly, are we really to believe that a state or government public health system is going to provide better service at a cheaper rate? Where's a comparable track record on that?

[TristansMommy]

Originally Posted by Debera109

To start with this issue, you need to decide if everyone is "entitled" to government sponsored healthcare. Is it a right of citizenship as suggested by UHC proponents?

Do you think it is a "right", in the same way that every child deserves an education? We pay taxes to ensure all children receive an education, but our school system is certainly not without it's problems.

Just because we have universal health care (in whatever form that takes) doesn't mean you'll have a healthcare utopia. Look at the emergency room death rates in the European/Canadian models ... people dying because the wait is up to 12 hours to be seen by a doctor!

Also, I have a problem with the stats listed in this article for longevity. Did they factor in the rising level of obesity related disease and deaths for the decline? Aren't we now the fattest people in the world? Is the problem really a personal life choice problem, rather than healthcare? Also, immunizations ... did they factor in the number of illegal immigrants which skew any meaningful data?

Our current system certainly needs changes, but emulating the Canadian/European models is not something I would want, nor do I think it would be beneficial down the road.

And lastly, are we really to believe that a state or government public health system is going to provide better service at a cheaper rate? Where's a
comparable track record on that?

First I have a post entitled Myths about Canadian Healthcare Busted.. and it's a VERY good article.. I posted it on another thread. It was writtten by a Canadian American who has his foot in both systems .. the U.S and the Canadian . Here is an Excerpt from the myth about "wait times" in the Canadian sytem.. there is more to it.. I just took a small section but follow the link to read it all;

Critics should be reminded that the American system is not exactly instant-on, either. When I lived in California, I had excellent insurance, and got my care through one of the best university-based systems in the nation. Yet I routinely had to wait anywhere from six to twelve weeks to get in to see a specialist. Non-emergency surgical waits could be anywhere from four weeks to four months. After two years in the BC system, I’m finding the experience to be pretty much comparable, and often better. The notable exception is MRIs, which were easy in California, but can take many months to get here. (It’s the number one thing people go over the border for.) Other than that, urban Canadians get care about as fast as urban Americans do.
10 Myths About Canadian Health Care, Busted | Physicians for a National Health Program

As to your point about a "right" or a "privledge" I ask you this. Do you honestly feel that your life is worth more than your neighbors simply because ou have the good fortune to make a better salary? Mind you most of those struggling with insurance and medical costs are indeed the hard working middle class families. The poor already get their healthcare with medicaid. The wealthy have no problems paying premiums..and can comfortably afford treatment should the need arrise. However, many of the bankruptcies in this country are caused by medical bills and 3/4 of those caused by medical bills were people that WERE insured.. but their insurance company did not "cover" or denied coverage for their ailment because it hurt their bottom line.

The government will NOT be giving the healthcare.. they are simply the payer. For the first time in a LONG time medical decisions will actually be put back on to the Doctors that treat us and the consumer.. us.. NOT a bean counter protecting a Profit for shareholders. If you go to the website PNHP.org, which is an orginization of Dr's for an NHI there is some VERY good models, and information all based on research.

Where are the emergency room "death rates" you point to? Where did you get this information. Probably another myth.. propoganda from insurance companies determined to make us believe that the system does not work.

An excellent working model is the U.K system.. it is excellent and on another post there are several links to NHI hospitals in their system taht you will see is top notch and on the cutting edge of medicine and technology.. All in the NHI system! They far surpass our healthcare system..longevity is not the NOLY factor to determine how well our system is run or isn't running.. there are MANY other factors, including our GDP spent on healthcare . We spend more and we get less period. Others spend less and get more.. it's a simple fact right there on the net for all of us to see.

[TristansMommy]

I also needed to Add Debra, that our current system has needed changes for over 20 years.. and the changes that have occurred have failed miserably in fixing it's true problems and have even added to them. You really can't fix something that is truely very broken.

A one payers sytem that guarantees health care for all is the most affordable way to go ..For one, it cuts costs my mainstreaming and cutting down on excess so that money spent on healthcare can actually go to that.. healthcare..as well as to research innovation etc.. rather than get wasted on beaurocracey etc.

I'm also not comfortable with decisions on my healthcare placed in the hands of some bean counter that is looking to protect ONLY the shareholders profit and NOT my health.. or your health or anyone's health for that matter.

[b75]

How can the right to survival not at least be in the same league as the basic civil right for an education?

Originally Posted by Debera109

To start with this issue, you need to decide if everyone is "entitled" to government sponsored healthcare. Is it a right of citizenship as suggested by UHC proponents?

Do you think it is a "right", in the same way that every child deserves an education? We pay taxes to ensure all children receive an education, but our school system is certainly not without it's problems.

Just because we have universal health care (in whatever form that takes) doesn't mean you'll have a healthcare utopia. Look at the emergency room death rates in the European/Canadian models ... people dying because the wait is up to 12 hours to be seen by a doctor!

Also, I have a problem with the stats listed in this article for longevity. Did they factor in the rising level of obesity related disease and deaths for the decline? Aren't we now the fattest people in the world? Is the problem really a personal life choice problem, rather than healthcare? Also, immunizations ... did they factor in the number of illegal immigrants which skew any meaningful data?

Our current system certainly needs changes, but emulating the Canadian/European models is not something I would want, nor do I think it would be beneficial down the road.

And lastly, are we really to believe that a state or government public health system is going to provide better service at a cheaper rate? Where's a comparable track record on that?

[Greatday]

Gynecologist Accused of Mutilating, Abusing Hundreds of Women

Australian police have launched an investigation into the rogue doctor, known as the Butcher of Bega, who is accused of mutilating and sexually abusing hundreds of women.

As ex-doctor Graeme Reeves, of Castle Hill, New South Wales, went into hiding Monday, The Daily Telegraph can reveal that other doctors accused of serious misconduct, including removing the wrong breast from a cancer victim, continue to practice

FOXNews.com - Gynecologist Accused of Mutilating, Abusing Hundreds of Women - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News

[ViewFromThePeak]

Look, we can come up with reasons why there should or shouldn't be UHC. Anecdotal evidence on an extreme case on both sides is meaningless and just kool-aid propoganda akin to that which was drunk in Waco.

IDEALLY, the system should be purely capitalist. I mean, PURELY capitalist. Not quasi-socialist with big taxpayer bucks going to Leninist programs like Medicare prescription backed by parasite lobbyists by Comrade Commissar Bush and other high ranking political officers out of DC central command.

Health insurance should be used for only catastrophic conditions. Tort reform should be in place (no more parasite trial lawyers), and CEOs immediately jailed or even in some cases executed (eye for an eye, remember?) for anyone who is proven without a shadow of a doubt to be the victim of retroactive denial. Highly levels of transparency to the point of having menus at doctor's offices for servcies. No "guild" for Drs with an inferiority complex. Competition is king. Some doctors might even offer warranties on their service to set themselves apart.

Unfortunately for us, this type of purist system will never exist, and while UHC is IMHO second rate to the system described above, it is at least marginally better than this straddling the fence overly regulated pseudo-capitalist obligarchy.

[ViewFromThePeak]

Originally Posted by b75

How can the right to survival not at least be in the same league as the basic civil right for an education?

There's a civil right to be educated?

Sounds like somebody making stuff up.