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And some people want the government to take over healthcare.
I will admit that my personal jury is still out on this issue. It is something that does weigh upon me heavy as I can see both sides of this argument. I am still youthful and idealistic so am still trying to discover that magic balance between the individual responsibility to the self, to the state, and to my fellow countrymen and the responsibility of the collective state to the people and the advantages that comes with collectivism.
Surely we can all see the benefits that a collective defense has? While there may have been cases in the past where bureaucracy has stifled efficiency in military matters and defense (laugh with me here will ya) most notably being the current administration.
Wouldn't simply holding these various departments accountable and responsible for their effectiveness and or mistakes go a long way to help solve this problem? It does seem as though we wish to expand oversight as a knee jerk response instead of using or enforcing existing laws and procedures and following through with them to their ultimate conclusion, good or bad.
Wouldn't simply holding these various departments accountable and responsible for their effectiveness and or mistakes go a long way to help solve this problem? It does seem as though we wish to expand oversight as a knee jerk response instead of using or enforcing existing laws and procedures and following through with them to their ultimate conclusion, good or bad.
Accountability is done through program audits and budget reviews. One of the problems is that the organizations have a LOT less autonomy in decisionmaking than you may realize. Much of the money appropriated from Congress comes with very specific instructions on how the money is to be spent, and how program results are to be measured. Reviews are executed by internal audit organizations, departmental IG offices, GAO and Congressional oversight organizations (outside of the GAO). Whatever problem exist, it isn't lack of reviews.
And good luck holding individuals responsible, matrix management and rotational assignments results in significant personnel turnover. The individuals charged with initial decisions are rarely around for the evaluations a few years later.
This is why I don't see his proposal as fixing anything, these problems will still exist. Instead, we just need to use current resources intelligently.
Accountability is done through program audits and budget reviews. One of the problems is that the organizations have a LOT less autonomy in decisionmaking than you may realize. Much of the money appropriated from Congress comes with very specific instructions on how the money is to be spent, and how program results are to be measured. Reviews are executed by internal audit organizations, departmental IG offices, GAO and Congressional oversight organizations (outside of the GAO). Whatever problem exist, it isn't lack of reviews.
And good luck holding individuals responsible, matrix management and rotational assignments results in significant personnel turnover. The individuals charged with initial decisions are rarely around for the evaluations a few years later.
This is why I don't see his proposal as fixing anything, these problems will still exist. Instead, we just need to use current resources intelligently.
Accountability to me would be when auditors found gross inconsistency, negligence, or corruption and then do something to purse justice. What you are describing here is a perpetual system of corruption, no accountability due to personnel turn over and this is no way to do business or use resources intelligently. You are right of course and that is what is so damn sad.
I will admit that my personal jury is still out on this issue. It is something that does weigh upon me heavy as I can see both sides of this argument. I am still youthful and idealistic so am still trying to discover that magic balance between the individual responsibility to the self, to the state, and to my fellow countrymen and the responsibility of the collective state to the people and the advantages that comes with collectivism.
Surely we can all see the benefits that a collective defense has? While there may have been cases in the past where bureaucracy has stifled efficiency in military matters and defense (laugh with me here will ya) most notably being the current administration.
Wouldn't simply holding these various departments accountable and responsible for their effectiveness and or mistakes go a long way to help solve this problem? It does seem as though we wish to expand oversight as a knee jerk response instead of using or enforcing existing laws and procedures and following through with them to their ultimate conclusion, good or bad.
The obvious difficulty with your reasonable observations is that bureaucracies tend to become self-justifying and self-sustaining. As a case in point, think of the teachers' unions in NYC, or in any large city, and their stone-walling of both accountability and innovation. It almost seems sometimes that institutions seek nothing so much as the power to subvert "existing laws and procedures."
As a conservative, I tend to think of these things from a "micro" (individualistic) perspective. Most of my liberal friends prefer the convenience of discussing groups of people who share certain definable, external characteristics. Their method lends itself more readily to quantification and quasi-logical formulations -- which is why they tend to win most political arguments. But their success rate in actually addressing problems remains dismally small, owing both to the core weaknesses of ignoring individual people's lives and to the ultimate futility of applying political solutions to what are essentially ehtical and spiritual concerns.
The obvious difficulty with your reasonable observations is that bureaucracies tend to become self-justifying and self-sustaining. As a case in point, think of the teachers' unions in NYC, or in any large city, and their stone-walling of both accountability and innovation. It almost seems sometimes that institutions seek nothing so much as the power to subvert "existing laws and procedures."
As a conservative, I tend to think of these things from a "micro" (individualistic) perspective. Most of my liberal friends prefer the convenience of discussing groups of people who share certain definable, external characteristics. Their method lends itself more readily to quantification and quasi-logical formulations -- which is why they tend to win most political arguments. But their success rate in actually addressing problems remains dismally small, owing both to the core weaknesses of ignoring individual people's lives and to the ultimate futility of applying political solutions to what are essentially ehtical and spiritual concerns.
We may have to start a thread weighting collectivist verses individual rights and responsibilities, pros and cons of various schools of thought. This somewhat philosophical topic is one that I wrestle with on a daily basis when considering a multitude of subject matters such as government, military, foreign and domestic policy, etc... It is after all one of the underlying basis for the whole conservative vs liberal approach.
To further expound upon my previous response in this thread I would ask, what if for argument sake that Condoleezza Rice was charged with negligence or gross misconduct in her handling of her duties and then prosecuted accordingly. (or any former government official that botched their job) Would this not help to stem this seemingly perpetual cycle of screw it up, lay blame elsewhere, then retire on the lecture circuit?
We may have to start a thread weighting collectivist verses individual rights and responsibilities, pros and cons of various schools of thought. This somewhat philosophical topic is one that I wrestle with on a daily basis when considering a multitude of subject matters such as government, military, foreign and domestic policy, etc... It is after all one of the underlying basis for the whole conservative vs liberal approach.
To further expound upon my previous response in this thread I would ask, what if for argument sake that Condoleezza Rice was charged with negligence or gross misconduct in her handling of her duties and then prosecuted accordingly. (or any former government official that botched their job) Would this not help to stem this seemingly perpetual cycle of screw it up, lay blame elsewhere, then retire on the lecture circuit?
Interesting hypothetical. You realize as well as I, of course, that in the current climate, her colleagues -- both within and outside the State Department, and across Cabinet (and party) lines -- would close ranks to protect her, observing once again the protective instinct among bureaucracies.
Turning the argument around a little, don't you reflexively find yourself sympathetic to, and defensive of, the actions of other Mods on this Forum in dealing with recalcitrant posters or other questions of policy and procedure vis-a-vis the day-to-day operation of the board? I hesitate to add that I am not arguing that the City Data Forum is some faceless bureaucracy staffed by heartless minions , but that a semi-corporate consciousness and sensibility is at work in its application of the rules which it establishes and administers, and that that sensibility mirrors to a degree the kind of self-protectve response of any group in authority when its rectitude or power is questioned...
Interesting hypothetical. You realize as well as I, of course, that in the current climate, her colleagues -- both within and outside the State Department, and across Cabinet (and party) lines -- would close ranks to protect her, observing once again the protective instinct among bureaucracies.
Turning the argument around a little, don't you reflexively find yourself sympathetic to, and defensive of, the actions of other Mods on this Forum in dealing with recalcitrant posters or other questions of policy and procedure vis-a-vis the day-to-day operation of the board? I hesitate to add that I am not arguing that the City Data Forum is some faceless bureaucracy staffed by heartless minions , but that a semi-corporate consciousness and sensibility is at work in its application of the rules which it establishes and administers, and that that sensibility mirrors to a degree the kind of self-protectve response of any group in authority when its rectitude or power is questioned...
Interesting observation on the bureaucracy that is the CD mod squad.
I'm not sure how others view this from the other side of the fence but in case you haven't noticed, my fellow mod in this forum and I are often of a different opinion on most matters. Even still, I have a great deal of respect for them for many reasons, one being their conviction to principle.
You might be surprised (or not) that I'm not exactly cut for a mod bureaucracy anymore than I am a conformist as a poster in this forum. I would look at it more of a group dynamic than a formal bureaucracy if that helps?
As to Condi, yes I have no doubts they would close ranks much like they did for Scooter. One of the reasons I admired many of the Republicans who marched up the hill and told Nixon, dude... time to call it quits man, shows over.
Maybe this is one of the core problems, placing perpetuation of the establishment above that of what is right or even prudent.
Maybe this is one of the core problems, placing perpetuation of the establishment above that of what is right or even prudent.
Precisely. Inertia may end up being the most powerful force in the universe, after all. It is certainly a threat to conservatives, lest they become ossified.
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so am still trying to discover that magic balance between the individual responsibility to the self, to the state, and to my fellow countrymen and the responsibility of the collective state to the people and the advantages that comes with collectivism. 
, but that a semi-corporate consciousness and sensibility is at work in its application of the rules which it establishes and administers, and that that sensibility mirrors to a degree the kind of self-protectve response of any group in authority when its rectitude or power is questioned...
