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Think about this though TM: If your annual taxes go up $10,000 to pay for UHI, you have not actually saved anything - have you?
And this is what has completely astonished me - that people do NOT understand what is being proposed about UHI.
First of all, let me clear up some misconceptions - and Greatday, none of this aimed at you - just used your post as a place to jump onto my soapbox, LOL!!!
Do you all realize that when the stats are bandied about - saying we have 40 million or so people uninsured - that (1) these figures include illegal immigrants? and (2) people who have turned down insurance?
Think about that for a minute. We have around 20 million illegal immigrants in this country. Your tax dollars are already going to their healthcare. Did you know that? Did you know that by FEDERAL LAW - illegals can't be turned away from Emergency Rooms?
But let's move on . . . Did you know that UHI is most likely only going to be offered to those people who HAVE NO ACCESS to insurance already? Did you know that plans are already in the works to simply have UHI administered through existing insurance companies, i.e. BC/BS, United, etc.
Did you know that your access to healthcare will be severely limited once this program is put in place? Can you imagine having yet another layer of bureaucracy in the process? More paperwork? More denials? More delays?
Higher deductibles and coinsurance?
You think you are suddenly gonna have no more premiums? NO NO NO!!! That is NOT the plan! We are not suddenly going to have the Insurance Fairy wave his/her Magic Wand and make it possible for you to go get your liver transplant NO CHARGE!!!! Or . . . your coronary bypass no charge. Or. . . your insulin no charge. Or . . . your hip replacement.
In the imaginary world of UHI, it is all rainbows and sunshine. No one's coverage includes denials. Anyone who believes this is DELUSIONAL . . . okay, or sorely misinformed!
You remember when we were all told that if we were willing to pay for cable tv . . . there would be no advertisements, b/c the subscriptions would make it possible to broadcast w/o ads - and all for $8.95 a month.
Anyone remember this? Anyone out there over 50??? Yes. When the government told us they would set up these nifty franchises w/ cable companies, that is what we were told. Better programming and no interruptions w/ advertising.
Have you looked at your cable bill lately? And what happened w/ those ads that were supposed to be bye bye? Hmmmm. Guess everyone pushed the envelope, week by week, month by month, and time passed . . . and people became complacent . . . and the ads started seeping in . . . and the cable bills started going up . . . and you know. Funny thing. No one seems to question it anymore - all those promises we were made 30 years ago.
Well, take a good look in the presidential election year. You are gonna hear all sorts of Candyland Talk. All sugar and spice, and everything that's nice.
Vote for Obama and line up to get your free MRI. Vote for Hillary and line up to get your subsidized MRI. Hmmm. What is going on here????
As the political candy gets thrown out to the masses . . . remember . . . someone is gonna have to pay for all those bon bons.
Think about this though TM: If your annual taxes go up $10,000 to pay for UHI, you have not actually saved anything - have you?
I seriously doubt my annual taxes WILL go up $10,000. If that is proposed, then it's stupid..as I am not that financially well off.
Someone who is may have an increase in their taxes that would be more than what their premiums are.. yes.. but then again, they really have more room in their budget . If I end up being in a higher income bracket and the tax did cost me more than the premium I serioulsy wouldn't mind. Why? Because we're talking about peoples health and we're talking about somethign that benefits my other fellow americans who work hard and wouldn't be as fortunate as I would for being in that upper tax bracket. I'm certainly not going to be suffering or living in poverty if I do pay a little more, but if I object and don't alot of good people will be suffering..
See.. the difference is that I'm not selfish.. and if it doesn't really hurt me.. then Im not going to complain.. because it's for the best for the nation as a whole while may not be the best for me as an individual. And when somethign is good for my country it ultimately is good for me.
I seriously doubt my annual taxes WILL go up $10,000. If that is proposed, then it's stupid..as I am not that financially well off.
Someone who is may have an increase in their taxes that would be more than what their premiums are.. yes.. but then again, they really have more room in their budget . If I end up being in a higher income bracket and the tax did cost me more than the premium I serioulsy wouldn't mind. Why? Because we're talking about peoples health and we're talking about somethign that benefits my other fellow americans who work hard and wouldn't be as fortunate as I would for being in that upper tax bracket. I'm certainly not going to be suffering or living in poverty if I do pay a little more, but if I object and don't alot of good people will be suffering..
See.. the difference is that I'm not selfish.. and if it doesn't really hurt me.. then Im not going to complain.. because it's for the best for the nation as a whole while may not be the best for me as an individual. And when somethign is good for my country it ultimately is good for me.
I am sorry. You are not getting this. This has nothing to do w/ being selfish. This has to do w/ $$$$ plain and simple . . . how much it is going to cost you. YOU. Not some guy at the top. The guy at the top already has healthcare insurance.
I personally cannot afford more taxes. I am glad you think you can. You are not listening here.
I seriously doubt my annual taxes WILL go up $10,000. If that is proposed, then it's stupid..as I am not that financially well off.
TM, I can just about guarantee you that, you will see your taxes go up substantially! It may very well be a combination of different taxes - increase witholdings for social security (from the current 7.2% to around 15%), to an increase in your income tax rate, to an increase in sales taxes on specific items such as certain foods etc -
TM, I can just about guarantee you that, you will see your taxes go up substantially! It may very well be a combination of different taxes - increase witholdings for social security (from the current 7.2% to around 15%), to an increase in your income tax rate, to an increase in sales taxes on specific items such as certain foods etc -
But, your taxes WILL go up. They have to.
My blood pressure has shot up so I am practicing yogic deep breathing b/f my eyeballs pop out of my head.
Did anyone read my earlier posts about rationing of healthcare?
I am not talking about possible scenarios - I am talking about what goes on RIGHT NOW in gov't administered programs . . . and w/ private insurance as well. And this is only going to get worse and worse.
I don't know what to say that will make people stop and listen and think.
People, just b/c you WANT the healthcare system to work a certain way . . and just b/c you ENVISION that it should work a certain way . . . that doesn't mean it works that way.
Do you think Uncle Sam is gonna make sure you get that cancer drug that costs $120,000 annually? Ya think???? Heck no. Ya think your doctor is going to be able to do a thing about that - what the gov't is going to agree to pay for? You really believe that?
Isnt there anyone on this forum from Massachusetts? Please step forward and tell us about the system that has been imposed on your citizens in re: to mandatory insurance. It all sounded so great when the politicians pontificated about it. But how is that workin' for ya? Check it out, people!
You think UHI means that you will get premium drugs b/c suddenly the gov't is involved? HECK NO. Those expensive drugs will simply not be on the ALLOWED DRUG LIST.
I just dont know what to say! I am not giving my opinions here. I am telling you what I see written in policy papers. I am not just throwing some what-if scenarios around here. If you are in an accident and you get your teeth knocked out, the gov't is going to give you dentures, not dental implants. You will only get the dental implants if you can AFFORD TO PAY FOR THEM. If you have breast cancer and the cheapest way to treat it is to have a mastectomy, you will be approved for a mastectomy, not some new drug that costs $3500 a dose.
It seems some of you think we are entering into some new socialistic proposition where everyone making over $250,000 is going to subsidize the rest of our healthcare needs. HELLO - less than 5% of the people in this country make over $250,000 a year!!! ANYONE LISTENING??????
And this is what has completely astonished me - that people do NOT understand what is being proposed about UHI.
First of all, let me clear up some misconceptions - and Greatday, none of this aimed at you - just used your post as a place to jump onto my soapbox, LOL!!!
Do you all realize that when the stats are bandied about - saying we have 40 million or so people uninsured - that (1) these figures include illegal immigrants? and (2) people who have turned down insurance?
Think about that for a minute. We have around 20 million illegal immigrants in this country. Your tax dollars are already going to their healthcare. Did you know that? Did you know that by FEDERAL LAW - illegals can't be turned away from Emergency Rooms?
But let's move on . . . Did you know that UHI is most likely only going to be offered to those people who HAVE NO ACCESS to insurance already? Did you know that plans are already in the works to simply have UHI administered through existing insurance companies, i.e. BC/BS, United, etc.
Did you know that your access to healthcare will be severely limited once this program is put in place? Can you imagine having yet another layer of bureaucracy in the process? More paperwork? More denials? More delays?
Higher deductibles and coinsurance?
You think you are suddenly gonna have no more premiums? NO NO NO!!! That is NOT the plan! We are not suddenly going to have the Insurance Fairy wave his/her Magic Wand and make it possible for you to go get your liver transplant NO CHARGE!!!! Or . . . your coronary bypass no charge. Or. . . your insulin no charge. Or . . . your hip replacement.
In the imaginary world of UHI, it is all rainbows and sunshine. No one's coverage includes denials. Anyone who believes this is DELUSIONAL . . . okay, or sorely misinformed!
You remember when we were all told that if we were willing to pay for cable tv . . . there would be no advertisements, b/c the subscriptions would make it possible to broadcast w/o ads - and all for $8.95 a month.
Anyone remember this? Anyone out there over 50??? Yes. When the government told us they would set up these nifty franchises w/ cable companies, that is what we were told. Better programming and no interruptions w/ advertising.
Have you looked at your cable bill lately? And what happened w/ those ads that were supposed to be bye bye? Hmmmm. Guess everyone pushed the envelope, week by week, month by month, and time passed . . . and people became complacent . . . and the ads started seeping in . . . and the cable bills started going up . . . and you know. Funny thing. No one seems to question it anymore - all those promises we were made 30 years ago.
Well, take a good look in the presidential election year. You are gonna hear all sorts of Candyland Talk. All sugar and spice, and everything that's nice.
Vote for Obama and line up to get your free MRI. Vote for Hillary and line up to get your subsidized MRI. Hmmm. What is going on here????
As the political candy gets thrown out to the masses . . . remember . . . someone is gonna have to pay for all those bon bons.
The UHI that i've been arguing for and talking about on this board is NOT the same plan as being proposed by our candidates. Quite honestly those plans fall short of what a true UHI should really be. Why? Becauase while they understand the need for a UHI they are quite frankly not ready nor can they come out and flatly say "we need to switch to a complete UHI system". Why? Because of the large lobby from insurance companies that pour MILLIONS into fighting such an idea.. and idea that will truly benefit us.. the people.. but completely NOT benefit them in anyway. That's the real problem. Also, there is al ot of fear out there about the myths of a UHI system that have been thrown out there that is simply propoganda funded by the insurance companies.. because they don't want you to want a UHI, as this will severely cut their business.
A true UHI is one where a percentage of your income is taxed, similar to SS. And then when you need to go to the Dr. you pay your copay, the government pays the rest,ect. Same with drugs. Sounds simple because it sort of is.. but this is the shortened version of what I'm talking about. In a system like that. It's a single payer system.. one that mainstreams paperwork, takes out the word "profit" from covering people (because right now your "premiums" are not only going to high health costs.. but going to the pockets of shareholdres, CEO's and all the billions in lobbyign that they do. I posted a link to an article about precisely this thing a few posts up, I believe. but here it is again just incase http://www.calnurses.org/research/pd...are_062607.pdf
Insurance companies that "cover you" for profit need to be removed as the main option. Buy supplemental private insurance if you'd like so that you can get that private room in a hospital or any extra type of surgeries not covered. (and when a UHI system is in place insurance like that will become pretty dang cheap)... private can co exisit with a UHI like in Britan.. but it has changed private insurance in Britian because it's like an "extra" and not really needed because everything is pretty much covered.
As for illegal immigrants.. I'm kicking myself because I can not find the link to the report (should have book marked it) that I read yesterday in which a study was done about ER visits. It turns out that most of the cost for ER visits by the uninsured were NOT illegal immigrants (while, yes illegals make up a portion) the greater portion were simply American Citizens uninsured). If I come across it again I will post it. IT was very good reading. We're already paying for them anyway.. and that isn't going to change no matter what system you have until you clean up the immigration issue in this country.. something that I think will be impossible. Perhaps making all these "illegals" legal would make them legit workers that actually pay taxes.. but then you'd really have to enforce that with businesses. etc. And much tighter control of our borders needs to be enforced too.
As for people who elect not to take insurance.. they elect not to take insurance because cost of insurance is too high. When I was in my twenties I rpobably wouldn't have purchased insurance either.. but I had a chronic illness.. That aside, if insurance were affordable they wouldn't opt out.. truly. As it is now I am "affording" my own insurance.. but I have to skimp on a lot of things and I barely am able to make the payments. I usually do by the skin of my teeth and by borrowing from paul to pay Peter.. or by paying all my other bills late or not at all. I dont' have "luxuries" . I also am not able to save as high premiums take up a HUGE portion of whatever extra income I would have to save. If you look at the stats, most of those opting out of insurance are young at that "Im' invincible" stage when you still feel "it cant happen to me". They are probably foregoing paying ridiculous premiums in order to pay off their student loans or save money for the future.. that kind of thing.
TM, I can just about guarantee you that, you will see your taxes go up substantially! It may very well be a combination of different taxes - increase witholdings for social security (from the current 7.2% to around 15%), to an increase in your income tax rate, to an increase in sales taxes on specific items such as certain foods etc -
But, your taxes WILL go up. They have to.
Of course taxes will go up.. DUH.. what does SS have to do with UHI tax anyway.. SS will go for SS UHI for UHI.. if done right that is..
As for taxes on items sold.. first sales tax is a local thing, so I don't know how the government would force a sales tax to pay for UHI. However I'm all for putting a higher tax on cigarettes, fast food purchases etc.. that go directly to the UHI Fund..
As for the other poster about covering masectomy vs. drugs.. well think of it this way.. if you are someone that can't , even now, afford the "cheaper" masectomy and without treatment would be left to die.. then getting covered for that "masectomy" is a step up. Those that can afford to pay more for insurance can buy private insurance to cover the "more expensive" items that perhaps a UHI wouldn't cover. That's why private insurance would still be able to coexist.. BUT that private insurance will be MUCH cheaper than it currently is today.
We pay double what Canada pays for name brand drugs.. they have a stronger bargaining power as a mass purchaser.. US would become a HUGE mass purchaser with our numbers. In addition. As for the drugs that have no generic..well if the drug is needed for treatment, than that drug should be covered under a UHI.
Considering that 16% of my incoem goes for my premiums alone and not even my out of pocket expenses.. i doubt any tax they imposed would add 16% or more to my cost. I do believe it would be less.. as some of the models out there for a true UHI would be aroud the 4-5% of income mark. I think paying 4 or 5% to be covered is much better than 16% plus the out of pocket I currently have to pay.
I am sorry, TM, I really like you. I do. I have read many of your posts where I was right there with you!
But may I ask you a question? And I mean this respectfully.
We have 2 candidates really pushing UHI. And neither of them are pushing the plan you want.
Why are you so vested in something that is not gonna happen? I have outlined to you what is gonna happen.
I mean - I want coconut trees to grow in my backyard. But just cause I want that doesn't mean I am gonna wake up tomorrow and they are gonna be there.
LOL. I understand.. I know it's not going to happen NOW.. but I am hopefull that it will happen in the future..
But. in order for the real change to occurr that needs to occurr people need to start REALLY looking at it.. stop believing the "myths" about this and that and really LOOK at it. Geero, who is a Brit married to an American and is coming to live inthe US soon with his wife, has grown up in the British UHI system .. and while it has it's problems (as would ANY plan) overall it works and works well .. and is far better than what we have.
Plans are always being introduced to "fix" our healthcare system..only to make it worse. Eventually it will collapse.. and it will probably take something getting a lot worse before it will ever get better...and before people actually start looking and getting upset about it. Honestly, if I didn't have to pay for it myself and didn't have a chronic illness I probably wouldn't be as aware as I am about the issue myself. AS the ranks of uninsured and underinsured grow. .the number of us that really are looking at the issue and realizing that it needs a NEW system..not just a fix.. will grow..and hopefully we'll be louder and more powerful than the insurance lobbies at this point.
Plans are always being introduced to "fix" our healthcare system..only to make it worse.
TM - I must tell you - nothing has been introduced to fix the healthcare system - at least not on the Federal level
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy
Honestly, if I didn't have to pay for it myself and didn't have a chronic illness I probably wouldn't be as aware as I am about the issue myself.
TM - I for one am very happy you are aware of the issue. And, you learn every day more and more.
But, lets be very clear: You are not the only one with a chronic illness and paying for insurance yourself. Like you, I have a chronic illness. I'm a cancer survivor. I pay for my own insurance as well. I too understand the issue.
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