Why can't we be 'friends' with Russia? (McCain, Mossad, radical)
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Putin is no Stalin. But neither can he be mistaken for a truly democratic leader.
He is more of a democratic leader than many EU states. Anyone bat an eyelash when a technocrat was installed in Greece?
installed.
The only difference between Putin and our state is the two term limit, which Russia does not dutifully follow. Putin does of course have the leverage the incumbent. If he became unpopular , then we would know the real nature of his regime. His fate is very much tied to the Russian self interest so.....
you inference that I believe Stalin only became 'bad' after ww2 was certainly not what i implied. I simply said we were allies during WW2 and that relationship soured with his continued human rights atrocities and shunning of modern capitalism
Conveniently forgetting to mention that he had been a known genocidal despot for two decades before he switched sides after Hitler's betrayal and his relationship with US and western europe was already as bad as it could possibly be - because, after all, Stalin was AT WAR with western europe - before churchill and roosevelt responded to his overtures. The relationship didn't BECOME sour - it was ALWAYS sour.
Stalin was no friend to either the US or GB, and all parties were well aware that the gloves would go back on following Germany's defeat. Actually, the gloves never did come completely off, in spite of the military alliance. The west and the soviets BOTH used WWII as a way to further their respective long-term plans for world domination at the expense of the other.
Absolutely no one expected that Stalin would cease "his continued human rights atrocities and shunning of modern capitalism" because of his WWII alliance with the west.
Your citing Stalin's switching sides in WWII as an example of genuine national friendship, rather than a temporary alliance with a lesser evil, is simply very bad history.
I will say that americans have never sufficiently honored ordinary russians for their heroic resistance to Hitler's invasion. America's industrial capacity was critical to Hitler's defeat. And so was the russian defeat of Hitler's army.
He is more of a democratic leader than many EU states. Anyone bat an eyelash when a technocrat was installed in Greece?
installed.
The only difference between Putin and our state is the two term limit, which Russia does not dutifully follow.
Seriously? You really think the only difference between the US and Russia is a two-term limit????
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Originally Posted by gwynedd1
Putin does of course have the leverage the incumbent. If he became unpopular , then we would know the real nature of his regime. His fate is very much tied to the Russian self interest so.....
We don't actually know how popular he is.
I think it's true that most ordinary russians are finally seeing an improvement in their living standards, for which they are grateful.
But being better than Brezhnev does not mean that Putin is the best leader a russian can imagine.
Seriously? You really think the only difference between the US and Russia is a two-term limit????
yep. I wonder how anyone can take you people seriously who just thought all is normal during the housing bubble when our government handed over trillions in securities to private entities. Russia did move in the democratic direction, however most of the credit from being indistinguishable goes to us. We are more and more Soviet every year.
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We don't actually know how popular he is.
You don't know. Independent polls have shown Putin is popular. Pew research:
While some Russians may have their doubts about the fairness of the March 4th presidential vote, Putin clearly remains popular. Roughly seven-in-ten (72%) say they have a favorable opinion of the returning president. Only about a quarter (24%) of respondents voice the opposite view.
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I think it's true that most ordinary russians are finally seeing an improvement in their living standards, for which they are grateful.
I don't think so. I have been to Russia so I know so.
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But being better than Brezhnev does not mean that Putin is the best leader a russian can imagine.
The United States and "Russia" (aka. Prussia, USSR, Russia) have been allies and friendly towards one another for the majority of our nations' existance.
We had treaties and alliances signed by Thomas Jefferson. We fought side by side in WW1 and WW2.
Then Stalin destroyed US/Soviet relations with his adherence to Communism, imperialism, and abysmal human rights record.
Reagan famously ended the Cold War when reformist Mikhail Gorbechev promoted Perestroika and Glasnost.
...
So tell me liberals - why all of a sudden do we hate the Russians again? They no longer oppress their people, they embrace and encourage capitalism, and generally fight alongside us whenever major conflicts break out.
is this just an example of "the friend of my enemy (Trump) is my enemy"?
The Russian Empire (died 1917CE) & the USSR (died 1991) were two very different things. We had very little to do directly with the Russian Empire, except perhaps when they collapsed during WWI. (& that was more the effect of the Allies wanting the US in WWI sooner, rather than later, as a result.) Nations don't have friends, they have interests (even the UK, our more-or-less mentor, burned down the White House in the War of 1812.)
We aided the USSR in WWII - & it's not like the USSR had much choice. They could fight off the Nazi invasion, or they could go under. Given that USSR's maneuvering with the Nazis (& political purges @ home, mass starvation, internal political crackdowns on successful farmers, gutting the competent officers from the Red Army & inflicting political commissars upon the officer corps) helped bring on the German invasion - it's hard to be very sympathetic.
The USSR finally collapsed of its internal contradictions, massive manpower losses during WWII especially, & tremendous difficulties running a centralized politicized economy & a huge defense establishment & the nomenklatura. Pres. Reagan took a bow, but I think the USSR was headed for the breakers in any event.
The next-to-last quoted para above is simply a pipe dream. The CIS' continuity with the Russian Empire & the USSR is: They still lust for warm-water ports. The nomenklatura & military & organs still take a cut of every pie, they still distrust capitalism (other than the crony variant), & they fight wherever they see an advantage for the CIS.
The United States and "Russia" (aka. Prussia, USSR, Russia) have been allies and friendly towards one another for the majority of our nations' existance.
We had treaties and alliances signed by Thomas Jefferson. We fought side by side in WW1 and WW2.
Then Stalin destroyed US/Soviet relations with his adherence to Communism, imperialism, and abysmal human rights record.
Reagan famously ended the Cold War when reformist Mikhail Gorbechev promoted Perestroika and Glasnost.
Putin and George W. were friendly and Putin supported our anti-terrorism efforts after 9/11.
Hillary presented a 'reset button' in 2009.
From personal experience, I speak to Russians often via Amateur Radio and visit with them at IT conferences - they LOVE the united states... they are not our enemy.
So tell me liberals - why all of a sudden do we hate the Russians again? They no longer oppress their people, they embrace and encourage capitalism, and generally fight alongside us whenever major conflicts break out.
is this just an example of "the friend of my enemy (Trump) is my enemy"?
I'm conservative OP and would have voted for Trump regardless of those emails because they didn't tell me anything I didn't already know about Hillary. As for Russia and Putin, you can be respectful but it's politics and Putin is not America's friends so you don't trust but I don't trust Obama or Hillary either.
You must not realize trump was for gay marriage 25 years before Hillary was for it.
I doubt that Trump himself has ever cared one way or another about gay people.
But he sure does care about religious right votes, which is why Pence is VP and Sessions is likely to be AG. Those religious right folks are definitely expecting - and already getting - some return on their investment.
He is more of a democratic leader than many EU states. Anyone bat an eyelash when a technocrat was installed in Greece?
installed.
The only difference between Putin and our state is the two term limit, which Russia does not dutifully follow. Putin does of course have the leverage the incumbent. If he became unpopular , then we would know the real nature of his regime. His fate is very much tied to the Russian self interest so.....
please ---some need to move there - permanently, they will love it - why live here ?!!
Russia has helped the USA many times throughout history. They let their claim to the entire west coast go for almost nothing. They sold us Alaska for a song.
They supported us in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, WWI and WWII. There is no natural hatred here.
The Russian Empire sold us holdings in N. America, true enough. For their reasons, more than for ours. Typically, as I recall, they wanted/needed the money to invest in their domestic economy - agriculture, mechanization, their military, & so on.
The R. Empire collapsed during WWI - it was likely a mistake for them to enter the war - but they were game. During the 1920s & '30s & '40s, the USSR ran a huge espionage effort in the World, & in the US. They were everywhere in government, military, the Manhattan Project, in manufacturing & universities. They had a lot of walk-ins too, people who acted out of ideological reasons, instead of merely for the money. The USSR didn't support us in WWII so much as they demanded a second front in ETO, & supplies, arms, ammo from the US, to keep their armies in the field.
We produced & sold & shipped over lots of support to the USSR, UK, the ETO - as well as our own efforts in ETO (N. Africa, the Mediterranean) & gearing up to assault & retake the PTO. As the ETO economies failed, we (the US) went to Lend-Lease, & kept on producing & shipping product to ETO.
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