911 was an inside job (deaths, Saddam, politicians, compare)

[the dufferz]

Originally Posted by movin'on

I don't think it's a waste of time, but since you do, why participate in this thread? I am grateful to the people who have taken their time to critically look at this situation and raise questions. Such is the nature (or was the nature) of being an American.

Once again, if you go back to my original response it will clearly tell you why I "participated" in this thread, and that I actually avoided it for a while.

I have critically looked at 9-11. The problem you just don't seem to "get" is that you jumped over that first hurdle, departed from the absolute logic of what I presented, and bedded down with these conspiracy folks. So, here I stand on one side of the hurdle, saying, "I can't go farther because thoughtful consideration says that this must be answered". You stand on the other side say "come with me to this wonderful land of suspended logic. There is no proof it happened, but look at all of these people who agree with me! How can I be wrong!".

looking at something critically and raising questions is the nature of an intelligent person. But a true critical thinker would never go beyond the first hurdle without the facts to back the move. Going beyond without the facts is actually the sign of a fanatic. There is a difference.

So, I think I have accomplished my original goal, so I am happy to leave you and your friends to discuss your favorite topic.

have at it!

[trip]

Ahhh, the conspiracy theorists live on.... as American as apple pie!

[mark6052]

A Dudette huh? that explains alot. im enjoying the posts. arent you afraid of the death squads? why havent people been hushed by men in the black suits if this is all true as you say? it should be part of the cleanup to keep the secret. Or is this really true? cleverly put out to sound like a fringe element, but really telling the truth. all to keep the masses confused until they can kill off all that partisipated in it. BRILLIANT! So do you work for the goverment coverup? an ex-goverment person would be credible sounding for the counter story. wow this is deep

[Nea1]

So people believe these ideas because of people that are once on the inside and are now on the outside, or are from another countries, have opinions on the matter!?! They are just blowing smoke up loose minded peoples butts!! trying to find a fire where there is no smoke, trying to get back into the limelight!! Where is the real evidence, sorry but I need more than ideas and opinions. Like they say opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one.

[mb919]

Originally Posted by Nea1

So people believe these ideas because of people that are once on the inside and are now on the outside, or are from another countries, have opinions on the matter!?! They are just blowing smoke up loose minded peoples butts!! trying to find a fire where there is no smoke, trying to get back into the limelight!! Where is the real evidence, sorry but I need more than ideas and opinions. Like they say opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one.

Where is the real evidence of the government's version? Even the FBI admits that there is no conclusive proof that bin Laden masterminded 9/11. At least 6 of the "identified" hijackers are known to be alive today. That, amongst other things, make me need to know more than what we've been told. Much more.

[Nea1]

well except Bin Laden said he planned it. I have looked and havent found where any of the high jackers have been found alive. I havent seen any proof that our government set this up, not one thing, just outside sources spewing their thoughts. People that honestly believe that people in our government would plan this and kill thousands of innocent people and then actually try to cover it up, need help.

[the dufferz]

Originally Posted by mb919

Where is the real evidence of the government's version? Even the FBI admits that there is no conclusive proof that bin Laden masterminded 9/11. At least 6 of the "identified" hijackers are known to be alive today. That, amongst other things, make me need to know more than what we've been told. Much more.

I believe that there has been a established path starting from the now dead pilots, back through their training, back to their entry into the US, back to the terrorist groups back to Bin Laden, confirmed through the Bin Laden video where he talks about 9-11 and what "he" did to the US.

Is the chain perfect? heck no. For me that is good news. Ever hear someone who lies, where they have the story memorized to cover their butts? If the government had all of the answers nicely packaged, I would be worried.

So there is a chain of evidence that has been established in the governments findings.

The conspiracy crowd claims otherwise, so if this were a court of law, the government would be on the defense, the conspiracy crowd would be the prosecution, trying to show that the governments case is a lie.

So tell me, what is the legal obligation of the prosecution when they want prove their case?

I'll save the follow-up post and answer it for you. They must prove BEYOND a REASONABLE doubt that they are correct. So far with all of the theories we see, the competing conspiracy chain of evidence falls apart when we get to the "who did it" stage (read my prior posts). Without this connection, the case of the conspiracy theorist is a hollow gong.

I personally find that the governments case is plausible. It becomes believable once you eliminate the "inside job", because there is no reason to hide what went on. Since the entire plan was not government sponsored, there will always be holes in the story.

So since the conspiracy theories cannot in any case connect the people to the crime, all there is left for this crowd is to gather on the net and pump each other up and post threads that make it sound like this is all fact.

I can't buy it, especially after 5 years with no witnesses or participants coming forward. That is just too impractical.

[WazzuCoop21]

I think the conspiracy believers on this post need to watch the recent South Park episode about the 9/11 conspiracy. I think the boys were right--1/4 of the population is retarded!

[MoMark]

Originally Posted by the dufferz

Once again, if you go back to my original response it will clearly tell you why I "participated" in this thread, and that I actually avoided it for a while.

I have critically looked at 9-11. The problem you just don't seem to "get" is that you jumped over that first hurdle, departed from the absolute logic of what I presented, and bedded down with these conspiracy folks. So, here I stand on one side of the hurdle, saying, "I can't go farther because thoughtful consideration says that this must be answered". You stand on the other side say "come with me to this wonderful land of suspended logic. There is no proof it happened, but look at all of these people who agree with me! How can I be wrong!".

looking at something critically and raising questions is the nature of an intelligent person. But a true critical thinker would never go beyond the first hurdle without the facts to back the move. Going beyond without the facts is actually the sign of a fanatic. There is a difference.

So, I think I have accomplished my original goal, so I am happy to leave you and your friends to discuss your favorite topic.

have at it!

Well said and I completely agree!

[mb919]

Originally Posted by the dufferz

I believe that there has been a established path starting from the now dead pilots, back through their training, back to their entry into the US, back to the terrorist groups back to Bin Laden, confirmed through the Bin Laden video where he talks about 9-11 and what "he" did to the US.

Is the chain perfect? heck no. For me that is good news. Ever hear someone who lies, where they have the story memorized to cover their butts? If the government had all of the answers nicely packaged, I would be worried.

So there is a chain of evidence that has been established in the governments findings.

The conspiracy crowd claims otherwise, so if this were a court of law, the government would be on the defense, the conspiracy crowd would be the prosecution, trying to show that the governments case is a lie.

So tell me, what is the legal obligation of the prosecution when they want prove their case?

I'll save the follow-up post and answer it for you. They must prove BEYOND a REASONABLE doubt that they are correct. So far with all of the theories we see, the competing conspiracy chain of evidence falls apart when we get to the "who did it" stage (read my prior posts). Without this connection, the case of the conspiracy theorist is a hollow gong.

I personally find that the governments case is plausible. It becomes believable once you eliminate the "inside job", because there is no reason to hide what went on. Since the entire plan was not government sponsored, there will always be holes in the story.

So since the conspiracy theories cannot in any case connect the people to the crime, all there is left for this crowd is to gather on the net and pump each other up and post threads that make it sound like this is all fact.

That's an interesting line of thought. However, since the government is the ones putting forth the boxcutter explanation, and demanding that Americans take it as truth, I posit that it's the government who is prosecution here, thus having the burden of proof. The government doesn't WANT to prove its case, because it knows it can't so it disingenuously puts the opposition ("conspiracy theorists") on the spot. FBI Director Mueller himself admits that if he were to have to prove his case of the 19 hijackers in a court of law, it wouldn't stand up.

Does the "who did it" inquiry REALLY fall apart? I argue that it doesn't, because that question hasn't been investigated nearly thoroughly enough. The money hasn't been followed. Questions like how and why our energy policy became conflated with national security, what the roles of Unocal and the Bridas Oil Company were as they relate to the Taliban and its overthrow, and what the government's relationships were with the bin Laden family and Osama himself going back 30 years haven't even been brought into the public arena. Why NORAD and the FAA stood down hasn't been answered. Why the NTSB hasn't released the results of its investigations over 5 years after the fact hasn't been addressed. These are gaping holes in the government's case that haven't been addressed by any independent investigative board of inquiry.

Also, as Israel has proven time and again, when there are known terrorist cells, the best way to combat them is through police action, not military action. Since terrorist cells aren't conventional national military units, and because they do not use conventional military tactics, a military response is not appropriate because it is not effective. So why send the military? I believe it's because the military-industrial complex, in which Bush and especially Cheney are heavily invested, make enormous profits. Also, I believe that the real objective of the military in Afghanistan wasn't to pursue bin Laden, because they had him dead to rights if they wanted him, but to secure the Unocal oil pipeline running through the country.

The biggest red flag, though, might be Bush's fairly (2006) recent admission that he "hardly ever thinks about bin Laden". Wait, Mr. President- according to you, bin Laden was the perpetrator of the largest-scale mass murder on American soil, and you don't even think about him? You don't care if he's caught? Why? If that's the case, then Bush would have to be the biggest enabler and traitor this country has ever seen, no? I don't know how this can be so easily overlooked, except that our media has been corrupted by its corporate owners.

I think that what gets lost in this debate is that personally, I would love it if a thorough, truly independent investigation of 9/11 took place and it vindicated the government. Really- because I don't want to believe that my country could be capable of such a disgusting, heinous act. But the government's words and actions just don't give me the impression of a government with nothing to hide, and letting them off the hook when I have these core-deep doubts would make me doubt my own "American-ness".