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Posted this in another thread but felt it is appropriate here as well;
This is where people have zero idea of history. Your mention of the "refusal to assimilate" couldn't be more normal in terms of history. Heck go all of the way back to colonial times. Religious groups struck out on their own. Ever heard of the Pligrims? How about the Quakers? The Amish? The Mormons too. Ethnic groups were no different. Indians, Africans, Irish, Chinese, Japanese, Jews, Germans, over time were some of the more prominent targets.
Typically these groups came here in search of something new, and met with resistance because they didn't speak English and their customs offended the people who were already assimilated. The first generations usually didn't try to blend. They stayed in their ethnic neighborhoods, spoke the old language, kept the old customs, and never really became "American's" Many even turned to crime to make their way as traditional ways were closed to these groups. Whether it was the "Irish Need Not Apply" or the redlining of entire cities to keep the undesirables in their own places such as Chinatown and Little Italy, it has been done over our whole history.
But every, single, time an amazing thing happened. The second generation started to leave that behind. They spoke English outside of the house, and spoke the native tongue in it. They picked up American customs, and turned to education as their way out of the neighborhoods. By the third generations it might only be a last name that would sell out an ethnic background. By the 4th and 5th generations, the ethnic identities faded to the point they were really of the old world anymore, they were Americans first, and something else later. The incredible part of that is that it was all voluntary. It wasn't like Soviet Russia where assimilation was forced, or Nazi Germany where the undesirables were just disposed of. People became Americans because they wanted to be Americans. The greatness of America has always been that people, no matter where they came from, always turned into Americans in a matter of a couple of generations. Pretty much unless we put the boot of discrimination on their necks, the transition has been seamless.
With the banning of Muslims of certain countries coming to the United States, nothing has really changed. These elements have always held power in the United States, and they have always hid under the veil of trying to save us from the latest group we should be scared of. At times, they got enough power to make lives miserable for their targets. We banned the Chinese from immigrating at times. We rounded up the Japanese and put them into interment camps. We tried to send the Africans back to Africa. Despite all of this, these groups have still turned into Americans over time.
I am here today to tell you that using history as my guide, Muslims won't be any different. Give America a couple of generations with these immigrants, and while you might have a few bad apples, they will be fat and lazy Americans in two generations. To me that is the ultimate victory. Our culture and society is so incredible that it wins out, and it wins out voluntarily. If we ever get to the point where this history stops, THAT is when we quit being great. You want proof? My hometown is FULL of Syrian refugees and immigrants that haven't blown up any buildings. They haven't used a single suicide vest. Guess what, they have been coming here for over a century just for the opportunity to work.
So while some want to live in fear of the latest boogeyman group, history tells me that fear is wasted. Quit being scared of immigrants. Don't live your life in fear. The ultimate in living scared is trying to hide from other cultures. You want to make American great? Learn from your history instead of being scared and wrong.
I'm not a liberal or anything else I don't belong to ANY party they both suck IMO.
Now with that said IF your not here by ANY legal means then you should have to go though the proper channels it's that simple. If someone wants to hire someone who isn't a legal citizen then go get a work permit for them this has NOTHING to do with race. We have to follow the law, so why shouldn't those who are here illegally have to follow them as well? I don't understand why race keeps coming into this.
Don't know if anyone knows this, but I'm going to interject this thought again....
Muslims who are Legal American go along with this, as they come from those areas of that terrorists are from....they lived it and they don't want them coming in here. They have said, that terrorists are sneaking in with the refugees.
Granted, right now, it's sad, that this is happening, however, something must be done to correct the problem that has been left go since 911 happened. Right then and there, Bush should have done something, but since his family is into oil embargo they refused to do a darn thing about it.
What terrorist have we had from one of the countries that have been blocked? The terrorist have come from countries that haven't been blocked.
1. That doesn't change what I said, that immigration is not being stopped for good but frozen temporarily.
2. I'm not sure. I've seen reports that it was confusion at the airports and most people were let in after questioning and figuring stuff out. I don't know if Trump intended what happened. If he did... oh well. I can think of only a handful of reasons why Americans would want to travel to those countries in the first place anyway, though.
The only people America really can't turn away at the borders are citizens. No one else has a right to be here or come here. It is a privilege not a right. They are temporarily being denied the privilege. Boo hoo.
It's not just immigration. It's transit. It is not a good defense to say you are so incompetent that you gave an order that didn't mean what you wanted it to mean. To say that people with visas and green cards should be turned away at the border is to undermine the rule of law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora
It was not intended to.
Oh well? That's a very poor attitude for blatant oppression based upon a poorly executed unconstitutional "plan".
I certainly believe that...you don't appear to be very knowledgeable about those countries or people who wish to travel to them.
The US can indeed turn away US citizens at our boarders.
Boo hoo for you in that you are displaying much ignorance. As a permanent resident (green card holder), you have the right to: Live permanently in the United States provided you do not commit any actions that would make you removable under immigration law. Work in the United States at any legal work of your qualification and choosing.
Most Americans with your attitude rarely have their facts straight.
Again, it is not a good defense to issue an order that says what you don't mean. That is gross incompetence. And incompetence that causes hardship, pain, and suffering for those impacted. The United States cannot turn away US citizens at the border. The same is true of people who are permanent residents or who hold valid visas. The very definition of a visa is that it allows a person to enter the country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise
Who did that? Not Trump. He based his decision on countries, regardless of religion. Those countries, by the way, that were determined by Obama to be dangers to the US.
He campaigned on banning Muslim immigration (and registering Muslims in the United States). Then he issued an order that extended to permanent residents and visa holders from 7 predominantly Muslim countries. Putting 2 and 2 together equals 4.
In some ways you are right, and you have to remember that anyone can travel out of Syria, or any of those countries on the list, to a European country, then to the United States. so I hope there are safeguards in place to keep those tied with terrorist groups out.
What you are describing occurred because of the visa waiver program, in 2015 Obama signed a law revising the United States’ visa waiver program. The visa waiver program allows citizens from 38 countries to enter the United States without a visa for up to 90 days. Under the legislation, citizens of those 38 countries who had traveled to Iraq, Syria, Iran, and Sudan after March 2011 were no longer eligible for the visa waiver. Libya, Yemen, and Somalia were later added to the list. In other words, Obama’s actions dealt with people who had visited Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Somalia and Yemen, not citizens of those countries, and it did not prohibit them from entering the United States.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reno Dweller
There's a lot more to this temporary travel ban than what you've heard in the liberal media, which has distorted everything Trump has done so far. He banned travel from countries that have not done enough to keep muslim extremists from spreading. Nobody knows who's coming out of Syria so it makes sense to ban travel to and from there, and when you have Iranians shouting "Death to America", you'd want to keep an eye on who comes into the United States from that country, wouldn't you?
I don't think there is any rationale for the countries he put on the list, the only thing he says about it is that they are the Countries Obama excluded from Visa Waivers. I don't see any evidence that the Countries not on the list have taken any measures to stop the spread of extremism, Saudi Arabia is the home of Wahhabism which is the basis for ISIS. It is still the primary religious sect in Saudi Arabia What is Wahhabism? The reactionary branch of Islam said to be 'the main source of global terrorism'* And Pakistan is a hotbed of terrorism, most of the schools are still madrasas where children are taught from the time they are toddlers that their mission is to be martyrs for Islam. Documentary Explores Roots Of Religious Extremism In Pakistan | Here & Now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reno Dweller
Saudi Arabia and other countries in the region have been allies to the west and unlike other countries on the list, they've done a lot more to keep radical muslim groups out since the attacks of Sept. 11th 2001.
The Countries not on the list are those where Trump or members of his family have business interests.
What terrorist have we had from one of the countries that have been blocked? The terrorist have come from countries that haven't been blocked.
We haven't, your right, however, there have been terrorists attacks in other countries, plus, I'm certain, our government knows more about where the terrorists come from than we do.
Look, a whole lot of Muslims are great people, my son worked in the Middle East and told me a lot of them are peaceful loving quiet easy going people, but a whole lot of them are not, so, how does one tell from the other?
Here is another thought, the more primitive aggressive terrorists, Muslim Shari Law believer, believes in having more than one wife, hence lots of children...so what about that....? I mean some of them have 10 wives or more? Is that legal in the U.S. Not to mention how primitive their thinking is....their culture is extremely primitive...
I've read lots of articles where they are raping women and girl children, so how does the U.S. handle that.
Yes, not all of them are like that, I believe that, truly, but, how do you tell which ones are not?
you cannot just open your borders to that....you honestly can't b/c over time, years, it's bound to bite you in the (you know where)
I would like to know, how so many people from other 3rd world countries get the money to send their kids to our colleges....I really have been living a sheltered life, and now realize, that our colleges are full of them....all over our country...? Why? How is that happening...can you educate me on that?
I see this over and over and I don't dismiss it but it leaves me wondering.......why didn't Obama have them on his list?
All the list did was exempt people that travelled to those countries from the 90 day visa waiver program.
For example, Australia is a VWP country, which means you are exempt from having to get a visa for tourist or business travel 90 days or less, if you're an Australian National. However, if you visited one of those countries, you are not eligible for a visa waiver and must apply for a visa (which includes an interview at an American Consulate) prior to travel.
Anybody, on any passport, who has travelled to those countries must apply for an tourist/business entry visa.
This is to make sure Foreign Nationals from visa waiver countries are not going to these places, getting radicalized, and then using the VWP to slip in without scrutiny. It doesn't even apply to citizens of those countries, of Saudi etc, because they are not part of the VWP and nationals from those countries already have to obtain tourist or business entry visas.
The Visa Waiver program was implemented to make short term tourism and business travel easier from friendly countries. It has nothing to do with Immigration as immigrant visas are not covered under the VWP.
Last edited by FinsterRufus; 02-01-2017 at 08:09 AM..
Reason: Added a bit
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I don't understand why race keeps coming into this.
