Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri
In a general sense I support the killing of the jihadists. That's exactly what the jihadists want.
Do innocents die? Of course.
But really - riddle me this - of the 250,000 who have died in Syria, how many do you think the USA has killed AND are innocents?
Yes, each life is important - but in the general realm of National Security numbers do matter. Thousands of your fellow Americans will die this month because they got into their car...often to do something they didn't need to do (get a snack, etc.).
I'm a history nut and so know the percentages and numbers from past American actions. Our wars often kill and wound MILLIONS of innocents.
Much of what is going on today is the backlash and results of the GWB era. We broke it and it can't be fixed so we are simply trying to be as effective as possible without great losses of life anywhere (except ISIS themselves).
This is why the "Bengazi" type of chants on right are downright ridiculous - as if a few lives mean anything in the great game.
Here's a thought experiment. Pretend it was 1998 to 2002. How many innocents in the middle east were being killed by either the American military or similar coalition forces? I think the number is near zero.....or in dozens.
Now we are in the millions in terms of displaced, dead, refugees, wounded, etc.
Which is better? Dozens or Millions?
Therefore, who did better - the GOP (started and prosecuted ALL these wars) or the Dems (who wound some down, changed the goals, etc.)???
Unfortunately there are a lot of our fellow Americans who cheer the deaths of millions in the middle east. It's hard to have a decent conversation when that is the case.
Any way you look at it, the basics were at least holding together until GWB broke the thing into pieces.
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Well, as unfair as it is to place historical partisan, I will give it a winger!
For the record, I am not dem or Rep. I actually voted for Obama, not for Bush, and not for Trump. I am a wait and see when their done kind of participant. But.....since you asked.
In 2008, Obama said he'd "end America’s grueling conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan." And in his second term, he" pledged to take the country off what he called a permanent war footing." Stating that Bush's war was "stupid war." He vowed to change that. Leaving the impression that he would remove America from senseless war. We were impressed!
Now that Obama is done, he leaves an extremely different legacy as he now hands his commander-in-chief hat to Donald Trump.
American forces have been at war for a total of eight years, the entire Obama’s tenure., the only and first 2 term president with that honor. Obama launched airstrikes and military raids in at least 7 countries, including Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan, Syria and Iraq.
This is the first time in ten years that there is the potential of an armed clash with America’s largest adversaries, Russia and China. That is thanks to Obama, not Trump or Bush. He did parades with American troops at Russia's border, to let them know we would act.
He expanded elite commando units, used tech like armed drones and cyber weapons, but it was war, lives were lost.
Obama left us wrapped up in low level conflicts all over the middle east with no end in sight. We will see how Trump removes us from that mess of a web.
We have secret drone bases in Africa now, and throughout the middle east. He moved troops to Europe because of his hate for Russia. He has micromanaged the military.
He approved NATO's air campaign in Lybia. Obama withdrew after Kadafi was killed — the country collapse in conflict and now has become a magnet for terrorist groups. (I won't mention Benghazi, but you know what happened. )
What he's left for Trump isn't any better than what Bush left for him. Islamic State is still in control of a large parts of both countries.
It's larger and more terrifying than Al Qaeda, with about 35,000 fighters, and followers. It's a self-declared caliphate and is responsible for the most deadly attacks around the world.
Obama finally admitted that he was not able to help get America out of the foreign wars, that came out of the Sept. 11th attacks. So this is what he's handing the new president. His broken promises and a new web of war throughout Europe and the Middle East that will be almost impossible to remove ourselves from.
Yes, Bush did start a "stupid war" as Obama and Trump have stated. But, Obama took that war and made a mess of it. He got us in further, not out as he promised. He didn't shut Guantanamo, he didn't offer a public option healthcare plan, and so now Trump is handed his failures, we will see how he handles it after taking the relay stick.
Most presidents D or R. understand the difficulties in promising anything. Which is why I think Trump has had an amazing first week. He seems to really adhere to what he says, and not give into what others think are impossible circumstances of the American government. So far he doesn't seem swayed by the challenge.
So yes, Bush made mistakes, although to his credit he wasn't handed anything easy either. Obama then made his and now I'm sure Trump will also make some. Time will tell. But, I'm happy so far. I'd like less war and more infrastructure. We only have so much money to hand out. Protective measures like this temp ban are more acceptable to me than drone strikes.
As far as your numbers on lives lost, let's hope the next four years leaves us with less than both.
Better roads, bridges, more jobs, and better healthcare. Fingers crossed!!
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