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Old 02-16-2017, 09:08 PM
 
2,129 posts, read 1,767,083 times
Reputation: 8758

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark&Addison View Post
For better or worse, the goal of a for-profit business is about increasing the value of the shares and the wealth of the shareholders. Executives have a job to do as well, and if they do not do that job (increase shareholder wealth), they will be fired, and replaced with someone who will. At the end of the day, no company is a charity, and if the activities of an employee or business division negatively effect the value of the company, they will be let go.

I understand this is often sad and has some undesirable outcomes, but it is not some sociopathic scheme devised by evil people, it is simply the machinations of basic capitalism. There are millions of middle-class americans who's retirement accounts hold Coke/P&G/BoA/Etc stock, and I promise you that they all wan't to see the value of that stock go up.

I agree that bonuses for executives are often excessive, but from the perspective of the shareholders they often represent a vary small percentage of even a single cent increase in stock price, and from that angle they are a small price to pay to motivate growth.


You say there are no checks and balances among execs, but accountability to shareholders is the ultimate check and balance, whether you agree with the actions of the "balancers" or not.
Yeah, exactly. That IS a sociopathic scheme developed by evil greedy people.

And "accountability to shareholders" only reinforces the psychopathy. There really are no checks and balances. The only "balance" is the balance sheet, and execs work to enrich themselves, not the shareholders. That they do this primarily by keeping a bare handful of shareholders happy and on board (because, you know - PROXIES) does not constitute any kind of "check" or "balance" regarding ethics and fair treatment for employees.

 
Old 02-16-2017, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Ohio
1,884 posts, read 992,653 times
Reputation: 2869
Until the people who have jobs cease to have jobs. Which is sooner than they'd imagine.

As this older generation dies out (no offense to them, most of them are good people), the average political mind set is gradually going to change.

The next big hit might be automated vehicles. If not, then it will be a few medium-sized hits to nearly all industries.

In any case, the "there's plenty of jobs, work harder!" people will turn into the "hey, I worked hard and I got screwed out of a job, you guys promised!" people. And just like that, the dynamic will change.

The problem right now is, the people that don't have jobs are GENERALLY (not always, I know) the stupid, instinctual, drug-addicted etc. They don't have the smarts to voice their opinion, or explain what exactly is wrong or unfair about the current distribution of wealth. This is rapidly changing as smart, capable people start losing their jobs to automation.

I'll give it 50-100 years. Years full of political confusion and misdirected anger, as we see now.
 
Old 02-16-2017, 09:54 PM
 
1,260 posts, read 2,037,873 times
Reputation: 1413
Well, I have none of your problems, but I was wondering the same thing - how long it is until revolution and when those who are like you will come for those who are like me (there seems to be plenty of "us" in this thread). What's interesting, I had nothing to do with your demise.
 
Old 02-16-2017, 10:21 PM
 
Location: So. Calif
1,115 posts, read 949,625 times
Reputation: 2893
I'm not about to say what my husband makes or what I get from SS. but I worked hard for years and my husband STILL works his tush off. We are NOT elitist but we manage our money. My husband has about 10 yr left until he can retire. He is 8 yrs younger than I. Again I worked many years and my husband works hard.

We live in a struggling community actually- many are having tough times and many have lost their homes for reasons I do not know. Everyone needs to get up off their butts and work that's what America is about. Why are the illegals taking the jobs? Get in there dog on it. Stop blaming everyone else. Get off the recreational drugs....Man up. Start a landscaping business-

So what do you suggest Dorian, every CEO take a test to see if they are mentally unstable? Come on. Greed? Corporations put people to work IF they want to work and have the right qualifications.

My husband works for a Maritime Company and guess what? His boss is a woman who use to run barges up and down the West Coast . My husband is Tug Boat Operator/Crew Chief. There are so many women working on Tugs today and in Merchant Marines. They make big bucks. Boy if I were younger, I would have taken up a job like that. Gone to Coast Guard School etc. Heck yeah.... Today the kids are taking stupid subjects in College. Not learning a trade...
My husband has a difficult time getting these younger ones to come in to work the weekends. They want to party all the time. It's so different today. Don't blame CEO's - wait I take that back, blame the CEO if they are hiring illegal immigrants as that's not cool especially if there are Americans just as qualified. Construction has changed a lot...that I will say. Go out and LEARN a trade!

Quick belly aching....blaming everyone else. Look within yourselves! Lay off the tattoos - nose rings etc...
 
Old 02-16-2017, 10:38 PM
 
Location: So. Calif
1,115 posts, read 949,625 times
Reputation: 2893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark&Addison View Post
For better or worse, the goal of a for-profit business is about increasing the value of the shares and the wealth of the shareholders. Executives have a job to do as well, and if they do not do that job (increase shareholder wealth), they will be fired, and replaced with someone who will. At the end of the day, no company is a charity, and if the activities of an employee or business division negatively effect the value of the company, they will be let go.

I understand this is often sad and has some undesirable outcomes, but it is not some sociopathic scheme devised by evil people, it is simply the machinations of basic capitalism. There are millions of middle-class americans who's retirement accounts hold Coke/P&G/BoA/Etc stock, and I promise you that they all wan't to see the value of that stock go up.

I agree that bonuses for executives are often excessive, but from the perspective of the shareholders they often represent a vary small percentage of even a single cent increase in stock price, and from that angle they are a small price to pay to motivate growth.


You say there are no checks and balances among execs, but accountability to shareholders is the ultimate check and balance, whether you agree with the actions of the "balancers" or not.

Thank you for explaining to DorianRo. :-)
 
Old 02-17-2017, 01:03 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 5,083,804 times
Reputation: 5036
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnojr View Post
Who's "we"? None of that applies to me. And no, I'm not "special", or a member of the "ruling elite".
If you are not part of the ruling elite then it does apply to you, you are just one reorgainization or the loss of some clients away from financial ruin.


Maybe you are a retiree? A dependant?


But this absolutly applies to anyone who is an employee or a small buisness owner even who still has loans or a building lease.


The issue is that real assets require TONS of money to pay off in our society (house, nice car, student loans) those are the big 3 and can easily be half a million bucks unless you drive a jelopy and live in a tiny home ... which ironically is what alot of millenials are starting to do because the debt requried to live half way decently is becoming untenable.


My 73k in loans were paid off in 2015 and my truck is next then the house while I still have good income.


People making crap wages are totally screwed, you either take the loans to go to school or just keep living in a hovel becasue tuition is too expensive in most cases to pay out of pocket making 15/hr.


The revolution will be in 4 years of Trump does not act on key issues (45% tarriffs, getting rid of H1B and the like, massive corporate taxes on profits, share holder dividends and stock price gains, I mean really steep like 1940s/50s steep). IF those things dont happen and happen soon then the people will vote in someone even more radical in 4 years.


Trump and congress have to do those 3 things this year otherwise a whole slew of congressmen will be loosing their jobs in 2018 and trump will be in trouble. People are not stupid and are not distracted by this Russia stuff. Put the tarriffs and 90% corporate taxes on profits in over a certian amount and get rid of the immigrants or more congressmen can kiss their jobs goodbye.


No one cares what Russia is doing, people want good pay they can raise a family on and buy a nice house and a car without mountians of debt.


We will have someone hitler ish in 4 years if the govt does not put corporations on a choke chain.
 
Old 02-17-2017, 01:10 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 5,083,804 times
Reputation: 5036
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haksel257 View Post
Until the people who have jobs cease to have jobs. Which is sooner than they'd imagine.

As this older generation dies out (no offense to them, most of them are good people), the average political mind set is gradually going to change.

The next big hit might be automated vehicles. If not, then it will be a few medium-sized hits to nearly all industries.

In any case, the "there's plenty of jobs, work harder!" people will turn into the "hey, I worked hard and I got screwed out of a job, you guys promised!" people. And just like that, the dynamic will change.

The problem right now is, the people that don't have jobs are GENERALLY (not always, I know) the stupid, instinctual, drug-addicted etc. They don't have the smarts to voice their opinion, or explain what exactly is wrong or unfair about the current distribution of wealth. This is rapidly changing as smart, capable people start losing their jobs to automation.

I'll give it 50-100 years. Years full of political confusion and misdirected anger, as we see now.
This is the key, when companies start their mass lay offs to protect share holder profits at all costs there will be hell to pay. That is how Nazi germany put together a war machine and terrorized the world, you dont see mogidishu doing that and they are all poor. But germany was a nation full of the smartest people on the planet made poor. We are rapidly approaching that point in the USA, and just as in Germany some will make it out and some will stay.


As an anicdote I was at the post office the other day and a record number of people were standing in lines out the door to get passports ...
 
Old 02-17-2017, 01:17 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 5,083,804 times
Reputation: 5036
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnojr View Post
If the decisions are "bad", why isn't the company out of business?



You really, honestly believe that employers will deal with the communication and cultural issues, as well as dealing with non-US laws and tax codes, to "save pennies"?



Oh, now it isn't "pennies", it's MILLIONS! And making all that money from doing a lousy job, wow!

Now it's tens of millions! So... real money? Maybe that's the incentive? Regulations and unions and bureaucracy make American workers so expensive that companies can save HUGE amounts of money by dealing with non-US laws and taxes and cultures, and you blame the companies for not spending as much as they possibly can?

If all that's so wrong, why aren't you starting a business and running it correctly?
So then why all the griping about 45% tarriffs (or better yet a straight up embargo) if they are doing so well in these other nations, why not just let these companies remain there and do buisness there and we can do our own thing here?


I will answer that for you, they want to exploit our markets while simultaniously putting us out of work.


I like the embargo the best becasue then it does not even give the consumer the choice to pay the inflated costs that the outsourcer will try to get away with to offset the tax before american companies can retool and re enter the market with an american work force. Once american production is ramped up then take the embargo off and replace it with a 45% or 50% tarriff.
 
Old 02-17-2017, 03:58 AM
 
11,025 posts, read 7,784,837 times
Reputation: 23702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark&Addison View Post
For better or worse, the goal of a for-profit business is about increasing the value of the shares and the wealth of the shareholders. Executives have a job to do as well, and if they do not do that job (increase shareholder wealth), they will be fired, and replaced with someone who will. At the end of the day, no company is a charity, and if the activities of an employee or business division negatively effect the value of the company, they will be let go.

I understand this is often sad and has some undesirable outcomes, but it is not some sociopathic scheme devised by evil people, it is simply the machinations of basic capitalism. There are millions of middle-class americans who's retirement accounts hold Coke/P&G/BoA/Etc stock, and I promise you that they all wan't to see the value of that stock go up.

I agree that bonuses for executives are often excessive, but from the perspective of the shareholders they often represent a vary small percentage of even a single cent increase in stock price, and from that angle they are a small price to pay to motivate growth.


You say there are no checks and balances among execs, but accountability to shareholders is the ultimate check and balance, whether you agree with the actions of the "balancers" or not.
I would take issue with your use of the word "goal" in the bolded sentence. It is more than a goal, it is a legal requirement.
 
Old 02-17-2017, 04:02 AM
 
6,112 posts, read 3,906,353 times
Reputation: 2243
Tonight my friend, we march under the cover of darkness and seize the means of production!
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