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Old 02-18-2017, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Austin
15,583 posts, read 10,310,046 times
Reputation: 19364

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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
Damn right. I'm descended from people that DID build this place. Maybe, just maybe (and that's a big maybe), you are too. It's a longshot.

But then, i'm not running around talking about who did what. You are.

You started this conversation without being prodded to do so. So you're already into it.

All i'm saying is that a hell of a lot of different types of people contributed to building this country. Anyone claiming anything else is fulla poop.
You didn't do one thing to build this country. You were born, luckily, in American just like me. Our ancestors made the sacrifices. NOT US.

White, European men were the original founders of America. That is a fact. Not in dispute. Now they are reviled by Leftist educators. Wrong. Very wrong.

Last edited by texan2yankee; 02-18-2017 at 09:33 PM..
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Old 02-18-2017, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Japan
15,292 posts, read 7,717,078 times
Reputation: 10006
Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
But few other women were encouraged to do hard math. My high school calc class had 3 other women. In a class of 20.
How do you know the other girls weren't encouraged to do hard math in high school? Perhaps they were but just weren't interested. As much as we might like to believe otherwise, the hard math aficionado population is heavily skewed male. I don't know if it is 85% male but it's certainly much more than 50%. So it's normal for the AP calc class to be mostly boys. And that isn't a result of snooty white men behaving badly. It's simply the way we have evolved to be over millennia, and social engineering efforts can make only minor adjustments to our basic human nature. By all means, encourage girls to do math and teach them about math related careers, but don't expect or demand that 50% of everyone hired to work as an engineer be female.
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Old 02-18-2017, 09:45 PM
 
1,640 posts, read 788,838 times
Reputation: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Enlightenment View Post
How do you know the other girls weren't encouraged to do hard math in high school? Perhaps they were but just weren't interested. As much as we might like to believe otherwise, the hard math aficionado population is heavily skewed male. I don't know if it is 85% male but it's certainly much more than 50%. So it's normal for the AP calc class to be mostly boys. And that isn't a result of snooty white men behaving badly. It's simply the way we have evolved to be over millennia, and social engineering efforts can make only minor adjustments to our basic human nature. By all means, encourage girls to do math and teach them about math related careers, but don't expect or demand that 50% of everyone hired to work as an engineer be female.
I disagree. AP calc is bizarrely considered to be an achievement in the US, even considered higher maths by some, in a math unfriendly environment in this country. Americans, men and women, are afraid of math and science and it likely has little to do with innate ability for either gender. There are other things going on.

Finland is the example. It's one of the highest achieving nations on the planet yet there is no gender difference. If this is simple gender biology Fin boys should outpace Fin girls. Yet, they don't. Fin girls usually outpace Fin boys as I understand it and by extension always outpace American boys. What explains this?

PISA: Finland only country where girls top boys in science | Yle Uutiset | yle.fi
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Old 02-18-2017, 09:57 PM
 
1,650 posts, read 1,108,735 times
Reputation: 1666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassy Fae View Post
I disagree. AP calc is bizarrely considered to be an achievement in the US, even considered higher maths by some, in a math unfriendly environment in this country. Americans, men and women, are afraid of math and science and it likely has little to do with innate ability for either gender. There are other things going on.

Finland is the example. It's one of the highest achieving nations on the planet yet there is no gender difference. If this is simple gender biology Fin boys should outpace Fin girls. Yet, they don't. Fin girls usually outpace Fin boys as I understand it and by extension always outpace American boys. What explains this?

PISA: Finland only country where girls top boys in science | Yle Uutiset | yle.fi
Population of 5 million... That's less than 2% of the US population. So tired of people claiming how great these tiny countries are and how the US needs to be more like them.

There is no way you can spin that giving special treatment to young women is not detremental to some men. Instead of seperating people into gender based groups, why not consider the individual? I can't stand these constant race vs race and sex vs sex debates. People should be looked at as individuals and the ONLY way to do that is to treat everyone equally. No quotas, no affirmitive action, no special programs. You don't hunder one group and prop another just to get the ratio you think there should be. Why is this so hard to understand?
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Old 02-18-2017, 09:57 PM
 
26,713 posts, read 22,332,762 times
Reputation: 9996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassy Fae View Post
I disagree. AP calc is bizarrely considered to be an achievement in the US, even considered higher maths by some, in a math unfriendly environment in this country. Americans, men and women, are afraid of math and science and it likely has little to do with innate ability for either gender. There are other things going on.

Finland is the example. It's one of the highest achieving nations on the planet yet there is no gender difference. If this is simple gender biology Fin boys should outpace Fin girls. Yet, they don't. Fin girls usually outpace Fin boys as I understand it and by extension always outpace American boys. What explains this?

PISA: Finland only country where girls top boys in science | Yle Uutiset | yle.fi
They don't exactly define "science" in that article, do they?
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Old 02-18-2017, 10:02 PM
 
1,640 posts, read 788,838 times
Reputation: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiverMeTimber View Post
Population of 5 million... That's less than 2% of the US population. So tired of people claiming how great these tiny countries are and how the US needs to be more like them.

There is no way you can spin that giving special treatment to young women is not detremental to some men. Instead of seperating people into gender based groups, why not consider the individual? I can't stand these constant race vs race and sex vs sex debates. People should be looked at as individuals and the ONLY way to do that is to treat everyone equally. No quotas, no affirmitive action, no special programs. You don't hunder one group and prop another just to get the ratio you think there should be. Why is this so hard to understand?
You do understand that the premise of this conversation, and the reasoning I brought Finland into, is that people are claiming that males are innately better at maths/science, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
They don't exactly define "science" in that article, do they?
Um, the PISA science sections are publically available. I'm not sure what you are meaning here.

eta: Maybe this will help?

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/educati...264266490-6-en
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Old 02-18-2017, 10:08 PM
 
14,489 posts, read 6,058,728 times
Reputation: 6842
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassy Fae View Post
I disagree. AP calc is bizarrely considered to be an achievement in the US, even considered higher maths by some, in a math unfriendly environment in this country. Americans, men and women, are afraid of math and science and it likely has little to do with innate ability for either gender. There are other things going on.

Finland is the example. It's one of the highest achieving nations on the planet yet there is no gender difference. If this is simple gender biology Fin boys should outpace Fin girls. Yet, they don't. Fin girls usually outpace Fin boys as I understand it and by extension always outpace American boys. What explains this?

PISA: Finland only country where girls top boys in science | Yle Uutiset | yle.fi



Yes because the world leaders in technology is freaking Finland
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Old 02-18-2017, 10:10 PM
 
1,640 posts, read 788,838 times
Reputation: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by dashrendar4454 View Post
Yes because the world leaders in technology is freaking Finland
Is my point really that difficult to understand?

Again, if boys were innately better at maths/science than girls then in one of the top scorning nations of the world girls shouldn't be as good, and better, than boys. These PISA results discredit the innate ability argument at that level at least.

Geesh.
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Old 02-18-2017, 10:35 PM
 
26,713 posts, read 22,332,762 times
Reputation: 9996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassy Fae View Post
You do understand that the premise of this conversation, and the reasoning I brought Finland into, is that people are claiming that males are innately better at maths/science, right?

Um, the PISA science sections are publically available. I'm not sure what you are meaning here.

eta: Maybe this will help?

Science performance among 15
Look at my post # 163.

It explains that "science" is too broad of a meaning, and there are certain areas in "science" where women are doing just fine, along with men. But NOT when it comes specifically to math/physics/mechanics.
Therefore "science" is a deceptive term here, when it comes specifically to those subjects.
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Old 02-18-2017, 10:43 PM
 
Location: Japan
15,292 posts, read 7,717,078 times
Reputation: 10006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassy Fae View Post
I disagree. AP calc is bizarrely considered to be an achievement in the US, even considered higher maths by some, in a math unfriendly environment in this country. Americans, men and women, are afraid of math and science and it likely has little to do with innate ability for either gender. There are other things going on.

Finland is the example. It's one of the highest achieving nations on the planet yet there is no gender difference. If this is simple gender biology Fin boys should outpace Fin girls. Yet, they don't. Fin girls usually outpace Fin boys as I understand it and by extension always outpace American boys. What explains this?

PISA: Finland only country where girls top boys in science | Yle Uutiset | yle.fi

Cassy, you realize that, in defense of your view that there are no essential gender differences with regard to math and science, you have pointed me toward an article reporting that boys outscored girls on the science part of the latest PISA test in every country in the world, with one lone exception (Finland).


Have you ever heard of the expression - "the exception that proves the rule"? And PISA is testing 15-year-olds for ability appropriate to that age. I doubt there is much calculus, or any other "hard" math on that test. Show me a test of college senior level math on which Finnish women outscore Finnish men and I'll be impressed.
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