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View Poll Results: Which one do you prefer?
Capitalism 47 83.93%
Socialism 9 16.07%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-23-2017, 01:37 PM
 
Location: USA
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If you had a choose which one would you prefer and why? There's pros and cons on both sides but which is the best form of governance?

I'll start...

I see Socialism as a trade. You give up freedom and individuality in return for a promise of security. The problem is these promises are often broken. No government can give you peace of mind and protect you from the realities of life. Life is a learning experience with many challenges and nobody can protect you from it. That's why Socialism doesn't work. The world isn't perfect.

As for Capitalism. The economy grows because people engage in consensual transactions and people invent new things in order to engage in more consensual transactions. That's not an impoverished thing. The truth is that socialism is the most selfish philosophy on Planet Earth because it's the concept where I breathe, therefore i deserve. Capitalism is in essence forced altruism because if I don't give you something you want then I'll starve so therefore it's based on consent. Socialism is based on force.

In the 1950's we had the highest wages and made the cheapest stuff. That's because we had more capital. Government was less involved in the private sector than today. I don't want to get too far off topic but if we have less taxes and less regulations then companies here in the U.S. will be more than willing to hire more workers since there's less risk.
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Old 02-23-2017, 01:45 PM
 
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That was an easy choice.
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Old 02-23-2017, 01:48 PM
 
Location: USA
2,753 posts, read 3,295,930 times
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I forgot that the word "Socialism" leaves a bad taste in people's mouth in the U.S. If this was a world thread, it would have a different outcome. It seems Capitalism will have an overwhelming amount of support...
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Old 02-23-2017, 01:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HumpDay View Post
I forgot that the word "Socialism" leaves a bad taste in people's mouth in the U.S. If this was a world thread, it would have a different outcome. It seems Capitalism will have an overwhelming amount of support...
Interesting thing about that though... The Europeans who might vote socialism actually live in thoroughly capitalistic societies. Those people charge for everything, including tap water and toilets.
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Old 02-23-2017, 01:57 PM
 
Location: USA
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Originally Posted by War Beagle View Post
Interesting thing about that though... The Europeans who might vote socialism actually live in thoroughly capitalistic societies. Those people charge for everything, including tap water and toilets.
True. Plus most of the Nordic countries are extraordinary ethically homogeneous so they're not comparible as well as being culturally homogenous which means Vermont looks a lot like Denmark and Norway. That's why most of the Vermont loves Bernie. It terms of economics it won't simply work here as these countries have gone nearly bankrupt. With the amount of high taxes in these countries, they're experiencing extremely small GDP and economic growth which in return has led to more right wing dominance in their government. They've been slowly moving away from this even when the U.S. has been paying their defense budget for well over 50 years. With all of that being said, why you want to adopt their system when they can't even sustain their own budget even with A LOT of foreign involvement?
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:34 PM
 
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It doesn't really matter that much, as neither of these economic baskets of policies are a form of government.

Though, they can and do inform philosophy of government on top of the bedrock of the social policies of the government that are much more important to what a government looks like.

Capitalism and socialism are economic tools. No government is likely to have a pure system of either, and these economic policies can and should be flexible with the nations changing needs. That being said, they can also be misused to great detriment to the nation's people.

More important to what a givernment looks like is whether or not it is a nationalist or communist government, the former emphasizing peoplehood and culture and the latter working to break peoplehood and its culture.

Both nationalist and communist governments can use socialist and capitalist economic systems. Just look to the world for confirmation. National Socialist Germany was a nationalist government with many socialist policies, and China is a communist government with many capitalist economic policies. There are more examples to be had.
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:36 PM
 
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What a stupid binary choice. Capitalism and socialism are not mutually exclusive.
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Planet Telex
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Originally Posted by HumpDay View Post
The truth is that socialism is the most selfish philosophy on Planet Earth because it's the concept where I breathe, therefore i deserve. Capitalism is in essence forced altruism because if I don't give you something you want then I'll starve so therefore it's based on consent.
Capitalism is, by its very nature, predatory. Predators have a role to play in any ecosystem. Because capitalism tends toward concentrated wealth, it just seems too easy for the rapacious to acquire the capital and then bend the government to their will, and against the well-being of the many. Looked at objectively, capitalism doesn’t deliver enough long-term benefits to most people. I’m not claiming it delivers no benefits. But its exploitative, destabilizing power has overcome democratic restraints again and again throughout history -- in parliamentary systems, in Presidential systems, etc. In a big enough economy, capitalism devours its cage, and pretty quickly, too.

Another problem is that capitalism is inherently cronyist, like all systems designed to reward the powerful with more power over the system. What is really killing (or going to kill) capitalism isn’t cronyism. Feudalism is even more corrupt than capitalism, yet lasted thousands of years. What’s going to kill capitalism is either the system crashing against the hard limits of ecology (whereupon humans bring it to heel or go extinct with it) or the invention of strong AI (whereupon humanity and its systems get replaced entirely and/or labor becomes obsolete).

Quote:
Originally Posted by HumpDay View Post
In the 1950's we had the highest wages and made the cheapest stuff. That's because we had more capital.
What actually drives economic growth is not capitalist system itself but the processes of urbanization and industrialization. Before the industrial revolution, growth rates were extremely low despite the economic system being capitalist. Once a nation finishes these processes, growth can only come from bubbles or external demand. Now that the rest of the world is catching up, the latter is near impossible (someone else will produce using cheaper labor). The writing is on the wall, as profit rates in the manufacturing sector have steadily declined for a while. Japan’s last quarter century is our future, though ours might end up much bleaker. Many nations will end up like Argentina, for example, with very poorly functioning economies despite abundant natural and social capital. Speculation will continue to be the main outlet and we will continue to face stagnation (low growth) combined with financial crises.

Humans are a tribal species who have devoted much of their “human capital” to warfare since the current genetic strain succeeded in exterminating the Neanderthals. Any discussion of contemporary capitalism in the USA that fails to examine the pivotal role of the military-industrial state is fatally flawed.
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:58 PM
 
4,279 posts, read 1,897,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HumpDay View Post
I forgot that the word "Socialism" leaves a bad taste in people's mouth in the U.S. If this was a world thread, it would have a different outcome. It seems Capitalism will have an overwhelming amount of support...
That is because we view rape as rape regardless if it was just a "little bit" of rape. Believing in individual liberty does that.

Socialism may not completely rip away all freedoms and liberty, but it does some and even a little is still a violation.

For now at least (this country is already heavily socialist), we Americans still differ from those other countries who count their people as subjects to their ruling powers.
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Old 02-23-2017, 04:01 PM
 
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If it's a choice of one extreme or the other, the answer is neither.
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