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View Poll Results: Take them down or leave them up?
Take them down. They're offensive. 114 34.76%
Leave them up. It's history. 214 65.24%
Voters: 328. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-07-2017, 08:55 AM
 
39,631 posts, read 37,137,002 times
Reputation: 12586

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Quote:
Originally Posted by vroomerroomer View Post
Look to whatever your favorite bastion of progressive expression, mine for example is California. You'll find your freedom alive and well there so long as you are prepared to server your master - the elite and state.

There was some band there who sang about this in the late 80's. Metalli- something.
Serve that master? I say whatever I want. And you don't know what I call a bastion of progressive expression. You know nothing about me. This is what I know. I can say what I want, do what I want. I can live wherever I want. If it's taxes you're speaking of, everyone has to pay those. And I can always get around that.
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Old 03-07-2017, 08:58 AM
 
Location: My House
25,003 posts, read 20,924,157 times
Reputation: 19708
Quote:
Originally Posted by -thomass View Post
New Orleans Confederate monuments can come down, court rules | NOLA.com

The lee statue has been up since 1884. What are your thoughts?
I voted take them down.

That said, I think they belong in a museum. I do not believe in hiding our history, as we have much to learn from it.

But, I also don't believe in glamorizing it.

Do you think there are Hitler statues all over what was Nazi Germany?

There's a reason why there are not.

Same reason that they don't allow the sale and flying of Nazi flags.

It was a very sad, horrific period in German history, so why honor the Nazi party or its leadership?
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:03 AM
 
39,631 posts, read 37,137,002 times
Reputation: 12586
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldoKitty View Post
This was 5 years after the Confederacy was founded. So your point still fails.
Actually, it was more like 3. In 1808, the importing of slaves was banned. CSA never forbade that. Northern states entered into the Union as free states. Southern states, no such thing. Just admit it. History shows that the southern states felt threatened by the idea that the federal government could abolish slavery. The U.S. Constitution might have looked the other way with slavery in the South. However, as time drew nearer during the 1850s and 60s, more and more southern elites felt that their way of live was going to be threatened. Their slave-holding way of life. They were willing to fight a war to keep slavery. USA didn't declare independence from Britain for the expressed desire of slave holding. The CSA, however, had an extreme desire for it.
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:04 AM
 
13 posts, read 4,498 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
Serve that master? I can live wherever I want.
I'll bet you can't live in SF. You'd better be packing serious cash.

Sure - that's just one silly example. But this city is the true expression of liberalism today. You - and that means "free" you - won't be free there.

You may certainly be a multi-millionaire. And if so, perhaps your version of freedom is just like theirs ; Freedom for me but not you.

And that's just the elites. Then you have the state.

This is what our ancestors died for. Not.

So take down those statues. Hell, they are probably asking for you to do so to avoid being associated with this mess.
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:04 AM
 
9,368 posts, read 15,044,142 times
Reputation: 4145
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
I personally don't get honoring Confederate soldiers. I figured it was common sense not to honor such a cause.
I recall reading somewhere that it was tolerated in order to bring the South back into the Union and squelch further trouble. Instead of a surly population chewing on defeat, a new set of myths were allowed to grow that gave them a sense of nobility. As time went on, it was easier to buy into that then think about your compatriots enslaving fellow humans beings.

This article said its closest analogy was post WWII France. Instead of pondering defeat and collaboration and the endless recriminations and vendettas that come with it, a myth of the "Resistance" was encouraged so as to unite the nation and move on.

In sum, you trade a proper reckoning of history for stability.

I cannot remember where I read it and am not sure how legit it is, but I found it an interesting explanation.
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:06 AM
 
9,756 posts, read 2,449,576 times
Reputation: 4325
These monuments to the leaders of the valiant fight against Northern aggression should be preserved and honored. They should remain where they now are -- in the public square.

I trust that this court ruling will be appealed, and that the continuing War of Northern Aggression conducted by the "sore winners" of the North and their "carpet bagger" acolytes in the South will ultimately end in well-deserved defeat.

I would add that this desire to erase history is straight out of Orwell -- a tactic that ISIS, Stalin, Lenin and Hitler would have enthusiastically endorsed. No wonder the Democrats are for it.

Even if they succeed in their efforts to remove the monuments, they will only create a fascination for this new "forbidden fruit" on the part of young people, who will no longer be indifferent to their heritage but rather very interested in it. They will see that they and their ancestors are being insulted. I would not want to be a Democrat running for office in the South if this nonsense continues. Nor would I want to be a Republican who endorses it.

Last edited by dechatelet; 03-07-2017 at 09:19 AM..
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:15 AM
 
5,489 posts, read 3,887,285 times
Reputation: 5174
Doesn't Nola have bigger issues to deal with than a statue?...
How did it manage to stay up all these years and now it is supposed to go... Wonder why... now.
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:16 AM
 
39,631 posts, read 37,137,002 times
Reputation: 12586
Quote:
Originally Posted by vroomerroomer View Post
I'll bet you can't live in SF. You'd better be packing serious cash.

Sure - that's just one silly example. But this city is the true expression of liberalism today. You - and that means "free" you - won't be free there.

You may certainly be a multi-millionaire. And if so, perhaps your version of freedom is just like theirs ; Freedom for me but not you.

And that's just the elites. Then you have the state.

This is what our ancestors died for. Not.

So take down those statues. Hell, they are probably asking for you to do so to avoid being associated with this mess.
So what? This is America. If you don't make the money, freedom has nothing to do with it. I know if I had been in San Francisco in the 1950s, there would have been certain neighborhoods I would have been prohibited from living in as a Black man. And this goes for alot of major cities across America. Today, my money, not my race, determines where I live. How hard I'm willing to work determines that.

How would I not be free in San Francisco? Expensive and not being free aren't the same thing. San Francisco is always going to be expensive. Why? Because it's a desirable place to live. Alot of activities, it's by the sea, and surrounded by water on the other side as well. Hilly, you have good mass transit. If you work in the tech industry, San Francisco attracts techies. And furthermore, it's tiny. Tiny land area + alot of people = going to be expensive no matter what. Conservatives could take that place over and it would still be expensive. Better yet, I live in the Atlanta area. We have some very expensive areas where if you don't make a high income, you can't really live there. Places that aren't zones for apartment complexes, where houses can go for $500,000+. Now, that might be cheap in SF, but wages are lower in Atlanta.

People fought and died for freedom of choice. Not having the money to live in a certain city is not the same as "you're not allowed to live there".
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:22 AM
 
14,877 posts, read 6,465,886 times
Reputation: 13959
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
I recall reading somewhere that it was tolerated in order to bring the South back into the Union and squelch further trouble. Instead of a surly population chewing on defeat, a new set of myths were allowed to grow that gave them a sense of nobility. As time went on, it was easier to buy into that then think about your compatriots enslaving fellow humans beings.

This article said its closest analogy was post WWII France. Instead of pondering defeat and collaboration and the endless recriminations and vendettas that come with it, a myth of the "Resistance" was encouraged so as to unite the nation and move on.

In sum, you trade a proper reckoning of history for stability.

I cannot remember where I read it and am not sure how legit it is, but I found it an interesting explanation.
It makes the most sense.

From what I've read, the Confederate States of America were outgunned from the get-to. Even Rhette Butler didn't think they had much of a chance.

Why the working people let the slave owners whip them into fighting a losing war remains a mystery.

But I can see where letting old Confederate soldiers parade around with some of their dignity was viewed as kind enough.

But the last Confederate soldier is long gone. Time to put that stuff in the museum.
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:27 AM
 
13 posts, read 4,498 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
So what? This is America. If you don't make the money, freedom has nothing to do with it.
As I say;

Said by me "And if so, perhaps your version of freedom is just like theirs ; Freedom for me but not you."

Country coming apart. Trump is just a symptom, not the sickness. I'd want my statue down taken down too, especially as the wheels come off.
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