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Old 03-13-2017, 06:48 AM
 
1,478 posts, read 784,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tritone View Post
What?!

Grace Flores coined the term "hispanic" in 1972. (link) She brags about it today. The term was later adopted by the census in 1980 for the first time.

Before then nobody was ever called "hispanic", and nobody ever identified as "hispanic". The concept completely did not exist. They literally sat down and just made it up.

Its amazing how many people are not aware of this and are inventing an exotic historical origin 500 years ago. Nope, it was invented in 1972.

Before then most people of Spanish speaking origin had always been white. They were not minorities.
Okay, I googled the term Hispanic up. It comes from the word Hispania, not Espanola as I innacurately thought, and the term Hispania is a Latin term dates back before the birth of Christ. It's a term the Latin speaking Romans used to designate the region of Iberia.

The term Hispanic was not something drawn up by this Grace Flores out of thin air.

Actually, I thought the term Hispanic dated to either the 1800s or early 1900s for the reasons I previously gave in my last post. It I was wrong it appears. Or in some great measure at least.

You are correct the specific term Hispanic, so far as I have googled, dates to the 1970s and is first used in the United States. It was used for political empowerment purposes.

Apparently, Chicano was used more frequently before then verbally, but referred those born in the United States from Mexican families.




Look, racial issues are politicized like sexual issues. Some how I doubt you like to get as specific about Jewish people, who are racially akin to Latinos or Hispanics. All come in white, brown, and black. But I suspect you have no problem with a white Jewish banker being politicized as a perpetual victim of racism in both the US and world, and argue that is why we need to spend billions on arming Israel and why Trump needs to more forcefully condemn anti-Semitism. But you want to disect the racial and historical truth about supposed Hispanics, shine the light on their false narrative, and demonstrate that people that looked like either George Lopez or Jennifer Lopez were never subject to a history of racism in the USA.

Irrespective of the fact I have seen brown skinned mestizo Mexican-Americans on film recount their social exclusion from mainstream white society, all the way back to the WWII era.

Now, it is probably true most your white Hispanics in the United States before and after the 1970s pretty much moved within the socio-economic spheres of mainstream white America with little notice and little to no prejudice. So long as they exihbited no customs that may have offended the cultural sensibilities of Anglo-Saxon Americans, at least among those upper-middle-class and among those more rigid in their ideas of proper behavior.

And no doubt the white Latinos, especially if educated and professional, would have been accepted among the Italians and Sicilian-Americans, whereas those same Italians would have not accepted and spoken degradingly of white Jewish-Americans.

But I'm saying, overall, white Latinos and white Jews all are integrated very well into the social and economic power structures of the United States. Probably due to historical reasons this seems especially true of the white Jews out on the East Coast and out in California and particularly Hollywood.
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Old 03-13-2017, 07:22 AM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
14,856 posts, read 8,173,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Hispanic is not a race it's a culture including the Spanish language.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tritone View Post
Grace Flores coined the term "hispanic" in 1972.
Wrong. The term Hispanic actually goes back to the 16th century.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Hispanic

Grace Flores only helped to establish it as a catch-all term for anyone culturally-associated with the Iberian Peninsula, for use as a government classification.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tritone View Post
Before then most people of Spanish speaking origin had always been white. They were not minorities.
Afro-Caribbeans were never considered white, period, stop saying it. People from Hispanic countries were considered whatever they were believed to be. Some were considered white, some weren't.
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Old 03-13-2017, 07:52 AM
 
17,290 posts, read 29,340,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz


Afro-Caribbeans were never considered white, period, stop saying it. People from Hispanic countries were considered whatever they were believed to be. Some were considered white, some weren't.


And this is exactly how it should be.

Hispanic is not a race. Hispanic is not an ethnicity. Anymore than being "American" is a race or ethnicity... anymore than residents of all of the former British Colonies can claim to be an "Anglo" race or ethnicity, despite many shared customs, language, laws and foods.

Latin America is/was an immigration destination for people from Asia, Europe and Africa. The term "Hispanic" in America is just a political one, designed to segment populations and justify the creation and maintenance of special interest groups.
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Old 03-13-2017, 08:02 AM
 
3,842 posts, read 2,205,934 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
Wrong. The term Hispanic actually goes back to the 16th century.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Hispanic
Grace Flores coined a specific usage of term "hispanic" that did not exist before. Hispanic was a rare English word that referred to things related to Spain. It was never used as a ethnic identifier the way it is today. People were never "hispanic" in the past.

If you were to go back in time even to as recent as the late 1970s and ask about "hispanics/latinos", nobody would have known what you were talking about. This is not an identity that existed.

There was never a concept that people of Spanish origin were an ethnic group, and much less that they were minorities. That was all a political fabrication. Before then calling somebody "Spanish/Latin" meant that they were white. It was like saying French.

Quote:
Grace Flores only helped to establish it as a catch-all term for anyone culturally-associated with the Iberian Peninsula, for use as a government classification.
That's the point. She coined the term as an ethnic classification. There was no such catch-all term before then.

The white, black, or "hispanic" paradigm that we know today is very recent. There was no "hispanic" minority group. People were white or black before then.

Quote:
Afro-Caribbeans were never considered white, period, stop saying it. People from Hispanic countries were considered whatever they were believed to be. Some were considered white, some weren't.
Yes, people of African descent were considered black, but few spanish-speaking immigrants were.

Cuban-Americans lived in deep south (New Orleans and Florida) during the harshest days of the Jim Crow era and they were WHITE. They had white privilege every day. They went to schools with whites, they identified as white, they played in the white-only major leagues, they were stars in Hollywood, they married white (Desi Arnaz was white!)

They were not minorities.
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Old 03-13-2017, 08:16 AM
 
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Eh...I'm black. Haven't noticed a difference.
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Old 03-13-2017, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
14,856 posts, read 8,173,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tritone View Post
If you were to go back in time even to as recent as the late 1970s and ask about "hispanics/latinos", nobody would have known what you were talking about. This is not an identity that existed.
This is true enough that I don't want to fight about it. She didn't invent the word, but she established its usage and meaning as it relates to the United States.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tritone View Post
There was never a concept that people of Spanish origin were an ethnic group, and much less that they were minorities. That was all a political fabrication. Before then calling somebody "Spanish/Latin" meant that they were white. It was like saying French.
But they didn't call them Spanish unless they were from Spain. Generally people were referred to by their nationality. They were Mexican, or Puerto Rican, or Cuban, etc. The Spanish had been thrown out of most of Latin-America by the early 1800's.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBw35Ze3bg8

You need to keep in mind that even the term "White" or "Caucasian" is even a relatively-new term. In the old days, you would be Italian, German, Irish, French, Scottish, English, etc.

The idea that some Mayan from Guatemala was considered white, in an America that was very racist against our own natives, while having a literal "one-drop rule" policy. Just seems absurd.


They weren't considered white. Or at least, not the ones who obviously weren't white.

But let us not forget, the Spanish themselves had something like sixteen different racial classifications for various mixes of whites, blacks, and natives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casta

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tritone View Post
Cuban-Americans lived in deep south (New Orleans and Florida) during the harshest days of the Jim Crow era and they were WHITE. They had white privilege every day. They went to schools with whites, they identified as white, they played in the white-only major leagues, they were stars in Hollywood, they married white (Desi Arnaz was white!)
I think your timelines are a bit off. There were virtually no Cubans in America until the Spanish-American War. That is when Cuba became a de-facto American colony(along with Puerto Rico). And most of the Cuban immigration to America came as a result of Castro's communist revolution in the 1950's.

Moreover, Cuba has very little American-Indian admixture. It is 72% white, 20% black, and 8% American-Indian. The vast-majority of Cubans in America, are basically 100% Spanish.

I used to joke that Fidel Castro is whiter than me. That guy from Univision is way whiter than me.
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Old 03-13-2017, 08:57 AM
 
87 posts, read 78,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tritone View Post
Grace Flores coined a specific usage of term "hispanic" that did not exist before. Hispanic was a rare English word that referred to things related to Spain. It was never used as a ethnic identifier the way it is today. People were never "hispanic" in the past.

If you were to go back in time even to as recent as the late 1970s and ask about "hispanics/latinos", nobody would have known what you were talking about. This is not an identity that existed.

There was never a concept that people of Spanish origin were an ethnic group, and much less that they were minorities. That was all a political fabrication. Before then calling somebody "Spanish/Latin" meant that they were white. It was like saying French.



That's the point. She coined the term as an ethnic classification. There was no such catch-all term before then.

The white, black, or "hispanic" paradigm that we know today is very recent. There was no "hispanic" minority group. People were white or black before then.



Yes, people of African descent were considered black, but few spanish-speaking immigrants were.

Cuban-Americans lived in deep south (New Orleans and Florida) during the harshest days of the Jim Crow era and they were WHITE. They had white privilege every day. They went to schools with whites, they identified as white, they played in the white-only major leagues, they were stars in Hollywood, they married white (Desi Arnaz was white!)

They were not minorities.
Latino only schools:
'No Mexicans Allowed:' School Segregation in the Southwest - Latino USA



A Tale of Two Schools | Teaching Tolerance - Diversity, Equity and Justice

https://www.nps.gov/heritageinitiati.../education.htm


Also Felix Longoria the Mexican American WWII soldier who was refused to be burried in his hometown cemetery because "the whites" would not like it".

https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/vef01

Also:Stop Ignoring the Police Killings of Latinos | Al Jazeera America

On an anecdotal level I have personally been discriminated by black people in majority black barbershop etc.; saying "no Mexicans in here",them calling me taco or just clowning on me, I never took it personally but someone else could have. So I would have to disagree with you.
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Old 03-13-2017, 09:06 AM
 
3,842 posts, read 2,205,934 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
But they didn't call them Spanish unless they were from Spain.
No, colloquially people were often called "Spanish".

My family grew up in Texas calling Mexicans/Tejanos "Spanish-American". That was the PC term for them, except that wasn't a minority label then, it had no non-white connotation. "Spanish" people were white.

Quote:
You need to keep in mind that even the term "White" or "Caucasian" is even a relatively-new term. In the old days, you would be Italian, German, Irish, French, Scottish, English, etc.
No. White identity was real. Being "white" had been a legal distinction/privilege for hundreds of years in the United States. All of those nationality groups had always been white. Most people of Spanish origin also had this privilege.

Quote:
They weren't considered white. Or at least, not the ones who obviously weren't white.
Yes they were. This is hard to imagine but even a Mexican that was dark-skinned was considered white. The only people who were considered minorities were people of African descent.

Quote:
I think your timelines are a bit off.
No im not. There were established Cuban American communities in New Orleans and Florida during the first half of the 20th century - that was the height of the Jim Crow era. They were unaffected by segregation or any of the race laws from the past. They were never on the back of any busses. They were considered to be white catholic people.
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Old 03-13-2017, 09:25 AM
 
87 posts, read 78,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tritone View Post
No, colloquially people were often called "Spanish".

My family grew up in Texas calling Mexicans/Tejanos "Spanish-American". That was the PC term for them, except that wasn't a minority label then, it had no non-white connotation. "Spanish" people were white.



No. White identity was real. Being "white" had been a legal distinction/privilege for hundreds of years in the United States. All of those nationality groups had always been white. Most people of Spanish origin also had this privilege.



Yes they were. This is hard to imagine but even a Mexican that was dark-skinned was considered white. The only people who were considered minorities were people of African descent.



No im not. There were established Cuban American communities in New Orleans and Florida during the first half of the 20th century - that was the height of the Jim Crow era. They were unaffected by segregation or any of the race laws from the past. They were never on the back of any busses. They were considered to be white catholic people.
What about segregated Mexican only schools?
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Old 03-13-2017, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
14,856 posts, read 8,173,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tritone View Post
My family grew up in Texas calling Mexicans/Tejanos "Spanish-American". That was the PC term for them, except that wasn't a minority label then, it had no non-white connotation. "Spanish" people were white.
I'm pretty sure they were called Mexican-Americans, or just Mexicans.

All of the Latin-American countries had fought wars to get independence from Spain. I would be shocked if they wanted to be called "Spanish-Americans".

If you look at the Wild West shows, they never made any reference to Spain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_West_shows

But there was plenty of mention of Mexicans.


And when I read the article about the woman creating the term "Hispanic", it said specifically that they were called by their individual nationalities(Puerto Rican, Mexican, Cuban, etc). And other than Hispanic, that is still how it works(IE Marco Rubio is a Cuban-American).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tritone View Post
Yes they were. This is hard to imagine but even a Mexican that was dark-skinned was considered white. The only people who were considered minorities were people of African descent.
I can remember they used to have a "paper-bag test". And if you were darker than the paper bag, you weren't white.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Paper_Bag_Test

I have no doubt that most racist policies were aimed at Africans. But the simple reality is that we did not treat American-Indians as being white, period. Whether they were Cherokee, or Mayan, it changed nothing.

There is simply no way a dark-skinned Mexican could have walked into a KKK rally and been accepted as white, period, end of discussion.
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