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College pushes off marriage and has since the 1960's. College debt pushes off marriage, new home buying and car buying you. Low wages hurts things dramatically. Things aren't all about being spoiled and loose morals OP. Too many women on dating aps/sites want people with their "**** together" meaning a car, their own apartment, few bills, etc. The economy don't necessarily allow for that.
Young men using debt or leased, borrowed or rented cars to act like they make a lot .etc
You can rent a very nice sports car for about $100 or so on Turo .
Men can get creative when trying to attract the opposite sex.
It comes from personal experience. Even now, people will tell women who are naive enough to tell someone they're trying unsuccessfully to get pregnant, "You just need to relax"; "It's all in your head", etc. There have been many articles over the years about how women who couldn't get pregnant really didn't want to get pregnant, some by infertility doctors! Mind you, these are usually people who had no problem getting pregnant and can't relate. It used to be worse. Now that more problems are treatable, it doesn't seem to matter so much. I'd like to see your data on this "growing number of women" who think that about IVF, also the results of these "older" women vs doing nothing.
As far as discouraging women, something tells me you are not the one to be giving advice.
I used "reverse" Natural Family Planning to get pregnant with our first child 38 years ago. After my ruptured ectopic pregnancy and only one fallopian tube, even more important to maximize your most fertile time.
It took us 6 months, and at age 35, to get pregnant with our 2nd child. While I wouldn't recommend it for birth control, what have you got to lose when trying to get pregnant? Just the cost of a thermometer.
College pushes off marriage and has since the 1960's. College debt pushes off marriage, new home buying and car buying you. Low wages hurts things dramatically. Things aren't all about being spoiled and loose morals OP. Too many women on dating aps/sites want people with their "**** together" meaning a car, their own apartment, few bills, etc. The economy don't necessarily allow for that.
I've been some of those dating sites you mention. Alot of the persons who want someone with their stuff together often barely have themselves together. And very often, alot of those persons don't have college degrees or college debt. Some of the most morally depraved people I know vary in education level.
Being in the Atlanta metropolitan area, this is my observation. There are alot of unwed mothers here. A large number of them don't have college diplomas or college debt. Rather, alot of it was
1) One night stand with a no-good guy
2) A few children with longtime gf/bf and just never bothered to get married
Low wages can hurt things. College debt does too. It hurt me. We've had spoiled people from every generation. Not particular to millennials. I think the only difference is that some people from my generation will proudly admit to being spoiled and selfish.
Alot of this can be regional. I live in the South and it is still normal in many places to get married young. Incidentally, the South has the nation's highest divorce rate.
I'm a millenial, in a very liberal major city, but everyone I know still strives to get married. Maybe they haven't found the right person or they haven't made the time due to demanding jobs, but marriage is still the ideal for them. So not sure the VALUES have changed so much as the situation.
The main "hurdles" that I see for people my age seems to be wanting to wait until they get financial stability/success before they can take that step. A good deal of my friends just had no time to devote to a relationship while they were climbing the ladder, and only after making partner have they made themselves open to it. For me too, I wouldn't have gotten married until making six figures at least. Why? I don't know, purely psychological but it seems to be common among my friends. What's so selfish about wanting to get a handle of your biz before you bring someone else (and a little one) into it?
I've been some of those dating sites you mention. Alot of the persons who want someone with their stuff together often barely have themselves together. And very often, alot of those persons don't have college degrees or college debt. Some of the most morally depraved people I know vary in education level.
Being in the Atlanta metropolitan area, this is my observation. There are alot of unwed mothers here. A large number of them don't have college diplomas or college debt. Rather, alot of it was
1) One night stand with a no-good guy
2) A few children with longtime gf/bf and just never bothered to get married
Low wages can hurt things. College debt does too. It hurt me. We've had spoiled people from every generation. Not particular to millennials. I think the only difference is that some people from my generation will proudly admit to being spoiled and selfish.
Alot of this can be regional. I live in the South and it is still normal in many places to get married young. Incidentally, the South has the nation's highest divorce rate.
I'll say that dating was particularly difficult for me when I lived in Atlanta. I wanted to date someone who had their stuff together at least as much as I did - and that was particularly hard. On the flip side, it's one of the reasons my partner and I are considering moving back to Atlanta. Less competition.
Dating in Boston is a difficult kind of challenge due to the cost of living, but at least just about everyone I dated before meeting my partner had a master's degree or was working toward one, had a retirement account, were moving up the corporate ladder, and had side gigs and volunteer positions to get their name out there, network, and build meaning into their lives outside of work. Sure, they might live with roommates in a dumpy apartment and be saddled with student loan debt, but they had goals on the horizon. Often that horizon means leaving for less competitive markets (dating, career, education, etc) to succeed after making a name of yourself here, but that pushes other milestones further down the road.
I'll say that dating was particularly difficult for me when I lived in Atlanta. I wanted to date someone who had their stuff together at least as much as I did - and that was particularly hard. On the flip side, it's one of the reasons my partner and I are considering moving back to Atlanta. Less competition.
Dating in Boston is a difficult kind of challenge due to the cost of living, but at least just about everyone I dated before meeting my partner had a master's degree or was working toward one, had a retirement account, were moving up the corporate ladder, and had side gigs and volunteer positions to get their name out there, network, and build meaning into their lives outside of work. Sure, they might live with roommates in a dumpy apartment and be saddled with student loan debt, but they had goals on the horizon. Often that horizon means leaving for less competitive markets (dating, career, education, etc) to succeed after making a name of yourself here, but that pushes other milestones further down the road.
I'm sure the Boston area has more residents with a higher percentage of college educated .
A lot of it is the circles people run in though.
I can see it being attractive to move to other cities for opportunities like that . If you don't have kids or family obligations of course it makes it easier to move around .
I live in Los Angeles but it seems there is more opportunity in some other cities and they are more business friendly and have better run local governments .
The main "hurdles" that I see for people my age seems to be wanting to wait until they get financial stability/success before they can take that step. A good deal of my friends just had no time to devote to a relationship while they were climbing the ladder, and only after making partner have they made themselves open to it. For me too, I wouldn't have gotten married until making six figures at least. Why? I don't know, purely psychological but it seems to be common among my friends. What's so selfish about wanting to get a handle of your biz before you bring someone else (and a little one) into it?
There is nothing wrong with climbing the ladder as a couple. You can achieve success as a team. I think if you wait too long you can see yourself as a team of one and it is hard to really commit to sacrifices of being half of a couple. People who have a lot sometimes have difficulty sharing and marriage is about sharing. If you grow together you see the results of success as something achieved with effort and support of both partners and it is a bonding experience.
People still meet in college and get married when they are starting out in careers.
I've been some of those dating sites you mention. Alot of the persons who want someone with their stuff together often barely have themselves together. And very often, alot of those persons don't have college degrees or college debt. Some of the most morally depraved people I know vary in education level.
Being in the Atlanta metropolitan area, this is my observation. There are alot of unwed mothers here. A large number of them don't have college diplomas or college debt. Rather, alot of it was
1) One night stand with a no-good guy
2) A few children with longtime gf/bf and just never bothered to get married
Low wages can hurt things. College debt does too. It hurt me. We've had spoiled people from every generation. Not particular to millennials. I think the only difference is that some people from my generation will proudly admit to being spoiled and selfish.
Alot of this can be regional. I live in the South and it is still normal in many places to get married young. Incidentally, the South has the nation's highest divorce rate.
Millennials are the children of the "Greed is good" yuppies so it is easy to be spoiled. I was, I admit it. Now that I have a decent paying job (I wish I got paid more for what I do but being in the public sector is a pay cut already) I do stop telling my parents to buy stuff for me. If I can't afford it, I don't get it (not that I truly did before.)
As for the women who look for "having your ****" together in dating profiles, it is hard to know if they do or don't. Every puts their best face forward online and/or on dates. Me I am truthful. It may not get me my share of dates but damn it, it's me take it or leave it.
That said with the renting cars, it might work first night, even second night but eventually the truth has to come out. I chose to do it early on. If the girls cannot accept a 268 lbs man well lives with their parents due to bills I couldn't avoid yet works hard, that's on them and I'll eventually find someone that does realize my path isn't exactly choices but road blocks I have to navigate.
People still meet in college and get married when they are starting out in careers.
This is very true. I usually have my glaucoma seen to at the University Low Vision Department and my teeth cleaned at the Dental School and other medical work seen to at OHSU and I am always amazed at the number of interns and residents and technicians with wedding rings.
They aren't all post grads or seniors either. A number are marrying as 2nd year undergrads. Then when they get their residencies they have to endure a physical separation that can be a couple of years or more.
And it still can be 12 years or more before they turn their sights towards starting a family. But at least they have one another. The ones that are 35 without even a FWB type of connection with the opposite (or same) sex are the ones I wonder about. Many remain hopeful. What informs that?
When I was in my mid-twenties, I met a wonderful young woman of 22. She was exceptional in every way, except one. She was into that stage of desperation about finding a man to marry. So much so, that she actually looked to me, as though i had potential in that. I'm sure she never understood why I made a quick exit and never returned.
Three years later in my job, I got an assignment to go to her place and interview her. I felt very apprehensive about this, but was able to call a favor and got someone else to do the job. i hadn't consciously realized how averse I was, to a woman with such intent, until then.
Over the last ten years, there have been about six couples in their twenties, in my near-neighborhood. None were married and they all made sure I knew this, as soon as any acquaintance was established. I think there's an awareness among younger people, that passing as a married couple, can be a setup for being liable for common-law marriage responsibilities. Making sure that all neighbors know that their partners have "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" status, makes that less likely, unless children are involved. This is the new reality for younger people, as what was once free or very cheap, now costs dearly. If the whole world shifted to this way of life, the population bomb would be defused. The birthrate would plummet in such a social order.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamajane
What was free or cheap and when?
College tuition. $78. per term at a major state college, when I started. A whole year of tuition, books, supplies, room and board at a dormitory, $960. Rent. $15. per month at a 4-bedroom home, where we lived at my birth. The house my parents built two years later cost $6,000. and sold recently, for $360,000. Food. I remember ground beef at 15 cents per pound. The best cheddar cheese at 20 cents a lb. Christmas trees. Free, if you went out of town and cut your own. No one objected, as long as it wasn't out of someone's front yard. Gasoline and heating oil. 15 cents and 11.5 cents per gallon. Soda pop and candy bars. 5 cents. Ice cream cones, 5 cents. City bus fare. 5 cents. A new car. $700. Visiting any park. Free. Car registration and plates. $5. a year. Health and dental care. Visit to a doctor. $6. Broken bone set and cast. $25. Dentist. Cavity filled, $5. Hospital, $15. a night. Movie theatre. 25 cents for kids, 35 cents for adults. College football game. 50 cents for kids, $1. for adults. Airplanes. A new Piper Cub. $1,500. For veterans, a new A6 Trainer (assembly required) $750. Books. A huge, complete works of Shakespeare, $12. new, $8. used. Most large, college texts were $4. to $7., new.
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