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Old 04-26-2017, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,419,263 times
Reputation: 35920

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I've read it several times. It doesn't change anything that I've said here. I think we've gone round and round enough about this. Don't you?
Not until you quit posting misinformation.

 
Old 04-26-2017, 10:16 AM
 
10,196 posts, read 6,266,403 times
Reputation: 11268
Jacobson v. Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905)

The earlier case involved defendants who refused to get the vaccination, paid the fine, and were seeking to recover the $5 fine in lieu of vaccination. They lost the case and could not recover the fine. No jail time.

Jacobson apparently refused both the vaccination or to pay the fine. He was remanded to jail only until he paid the FINE, not until he was vaccinated.

Go on FindLaw.com and you can read the entire very long verdict. The decision also speaks to the vaccination of children, which is entirely different.
 
Old 04-26-2017, 10:18 AM
 
26,661 posts, read 13,661,026 times
Reputation: 19118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Again, like your time travel vaccines, you've got your dates wrong. Offit voted to put the old rotavirus vaccine on the program in 1998. His vaccine was added in 2006. It had not been approved yet in 1998. He recused himself on the vote to pull the old RV vaccine. He was not a member of the committee when his vaccine was approved. The date of this "extremely pro-vaccine blog" is 2000! Rotateq was not approved until 2006; rotarix in 2008.

"RotaTeq Approval History
FDA approved: Yes (First approved February 3rd, 2006)"
https://www.drugs.com/history/rotateq.html

"Rotarix Approval History
FDA approved: Yes (First approved April 3rd, 2008)"
https://www.drugs.com/history/rotarix.html
I'm sorry you aren't understanding what I was stating. I thought I was clear but maybe not. I did not claim that he voted in favor of his own vaccine or even that he was on the committee when that vote occurred. I did say that he helped get a rotavirus vaccine on the schedule which paved the way for his vaccine to eventually get on the schedule. He only recused himself of the vote to take off the dangerous vaccine that he had previously approved off the schedule (which also paved the way for his vaccine to be added at a later date). His was by far not the only conflict of interest. There were a lot.

Please read the report if you would like further clarification on the numerous conflicts of interest that occurred in regards to the rotavirus vaccine approval process. The link I provided came from one of your favorite blogs, "Skeptical Raptor" so I would think you would find it worthy enough to read. The link I proved from this blog is a government report, not a blog post. The title is : Conflicts of Interest in Vaccine Policy Making Majority Staff Report Committee on Government Reform U.S. House of Representatives August 21, 2000"



Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Not until you quit posting misinformation.
I haven't posted any misinformation on the number of deaths from rotavirus which are currently unknown.

Last edited by MissTerri; 04-26-2017 at 10:26 AM..
 
Old 04-26-2017, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,419,263 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I'm sorry you aren't understanding what I was stating. I thought I was clear but maybe not. Please read the report if you would like further clarification on the conflict of interests that occurred. The link I provided came from one of your favorite blogs, "Skeptical Raptor" so I would think you would find it worthy enough to read.



I haven't posted any misinformation on the number of deaths from rotavirus which are currently unknown.
I probably will read the report at some point in time. However, it has nothing to do with Offit voting to approve the vaccine he helped develop. You seem to not understand that 1998, 1999, 2000 are BEFORE 2006!

You are posting misinformation that medical decisions are being made on nothing more than a guess. FUD, FUD, FUD!
 
Old 04-26-2017, 10:28 AM
 
26,661 posts, read 13,661,026 times
Reputation: 19118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
I probably will read the report at some point in time. However, it has nothing to do with Offit voting to approve the vaccine he helped develop. You seem to not understand that 1998, 1999, 2000 are BEFORE 2006!
I edited my post above to provide more information if you're interested. I did not say what you seem to think I said.
 
Old 04-26-2017, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
37,008 posts, read 41,051,729 times
Reputation: 44944
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Then we are more on the same page than not.

I think people have a fundamental right to body autonomy, I also think they have the right to face the societal consequence of those choice. What I am opposed to, and many (but clearly not you) think should happen is that the government should be forcing any and all vaccinations on people.

I will quibble with the state about "virtually uncountable". People have serious or fatal allergic reactions to vaccines. They are exceedingly rare, but as a population that numbers in the billions gets vaccinated for more and more diseases, it is an overstatement to say it is uncountable. Even the CDC says serious reactions are 1 in a million. When you have 7 billion people, that is thousands of serious or fatal reactions for just one type of vaccine. That is not what I would call "virtually uncountable". Both "sides" need to avoid overstatement and exaggeration. It also gives weight to the notion that people on the "pro" side lie. Because many people (myself included) know someone who has had serious complications from vaccination. Now, most people in this thread see that factual statement and assume I am anti-vaccine. I am not, proved by the fact that myself and my children are vaccinated for most things. Medicine is complicated, especially as an individual, everyone should get actively involved in their own health, pretending there is one correct stance is a mistake. Many medical professionals overprescribe, some even act like the CDC preaches gospel. That is as unscientific a stance as those whackadoodles who think vaccines cause autism.
No one is forced to vaccinate. That is what I take issue with, and the associated "slippery slope" argument.

It is very difficult to know what the true incidence of serious adverse effects from vaccines is. Most doctors who administer them will never see one. I was reading a discussion on another forum one time and a doctor mentioned that a child had a seizure in her office just before a vaccine was to be administered. Had that vaccine been given five minutes earlier, the parents would have been forever convinced that the vaccine caused the seizure. The inability to understand the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy means parents blame vaccines for things that are not caused by vaccines.

Allergic reactions do happen. They can be dangerous but are usually not fatal. An allergic reaction can happen to any medication, and they are a lot more common with antibiotics than with vaccines. Yet parents will accept penicillin for a strep throat but reject a vaccine.

If doctors act like the CDC preaches gospel, it is because a lot of thought goes into its recommendations, particularly with regard to vaccines. Vaccines are not added willy nilly, combination vaccines have to be shown to be effective, and the schedule is designed to get the child protected against as many diseases as possible as quickly as possible. All of the vaccines on the schedule are for diseases that can maim and kill. They are not trivial. Therefore, any deviation from the schedule should have some science behind it, and, in the absence of a medical contraindication to taking a vaccine, there is none. Even alternative vaccine schedule guru "Dr. Bob" Sears admits there is none. If you are going to reject what the CDC says there should be a very good reason to do so. I see no such reasons as far as vaccines are concerned.

How many people have fatal complications from vaccines?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4599698/

One study found five cases in ten years of fatal anaphylaxis possibly due to vaccines. Another, of 7,644,049 vaccine doses, found five cases of anaphylaxis possibly due to vaccines with no deaths. That means that in that study the risk was even less than 1 in a million.

There have been fatalities from administration of live virus vaccines to people with immune deficiencies, which is why such deficiencies are a contraindication to vaccination. In all, the linked article mentions nine isolated case reports in that category.

Next comes intussusception after rotavirus vaccine, for which one death has been reported, following the vaccine which has been removed from the market.

For Guillain-Barré syndrome, the causal relationship with influenza vaccine other than the 1976 season is tenuous. Studies since then have shown either a low increase (1 to 2 cases per million doses) or no increased risk at all. There is even one study which showed a lower risk after the vaccine, probably reflecting the fact that influenza itself carries a risk of GBS. By preventing flu the vaccine prevented some cases of GBS.

There is one report of a fatal head injury due to fainting after hepatitis B vaccine. Fainting and the risk of allergic reactions is the reason most doctors want patients to wait a short while before getting up and leaving the office after getting vaccines.

The other fatalities are associated with vaccines not on the recommended US schedule, including yellow fever, smallpox, and oral polio.

As you can see, the data on fatal vaccine reactions is based on very small numbers of incidents. That is why it is virtually impossible to come up with hard and fast risk estimates.
 
Old 04-26-2017, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
37,008 posts, read 41,051,729 times
Reputation: 44944
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
The problem you seem to be demonstrating here is the well established tactic of bombarding people with lofty statistics and questionable claims, which come from highly biased sources. But the most obvious problem is the severe mathematical challenge you suffer!

You claim 20-60 US deaths annually from the disease .... if we were to assume the worst ... 60 deaths, and assume the best, 60 lives saved (100% effectiveness) .... and assume that he deaths worldwide is 100 times that of the US ... it would take 1000 YEARS to save hundreds of thousands of lives.

THIS IS JUST ONE EXAMPLE of the nonsensical claims being tossed about, regarding just one vaccine and one disease. Applying this to all vaccines and all medical miracles constantly promoted, humanity would have long ago ceased to exist before Jenner ever concocted that cockamamie coxpox hoax that gave birth to this assault on human health!

Just sayin'
Your assumption that there are only 6000 deaths per year from rotavirus worldwide is wrong.

WHO | Estimated rotavirus deaths for children under 5 years of age: 2013, 215 000

"As of April 2016, the World Health Organization estimates that globally 215 000 (197 000 - 233 000) child deaths occurred during 2013 due to rotavirus infection compared to 528 000 (465 000 – 591 000) in 2000."

That means the number of deaths has decreased by about 313,000 per year, attributable to the vaccine.

Smallpox was vaccinated out of existence. It has been eradicated, and that is no hoax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
From the report linked in your blog.

http://lizditz.typepad.com/files/con...ug_21_2000.pdf

Wow, this may not point to wrongdoing of Paul Offit but it sure does show the insane conflicts of interest that exist in abundance among those who make decisions on what vaccines go onto the schedule and which vaccines go onto the schedule.
Your previous post was still misleading. Dr. Offit did not vote on the vaccine with which he had financial ties. he recused himself. You are imputing a conflict of interest to him for a product for which he had no financial relationship at all.

Quote:
There is no evidence of any reduction in deaths in the US. You're the one stretching to make the narrative of your choosing fit without any evidence.
You are just refusing to accept the evidence. It does not mean it is not there. You are just using a variation of the "vaccines did not save us" meme. If a disease can be fatal and you prevent the disease you will reduce fatalities. It is inevitable.

But here you go. You will remember that I said I would expect the vaccine to prevent between 10 and 30 deaths per year from rotavirus.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22929172

"Vaccination would avert 14 (95% CI: 10-19) rotavirus-associated deaths, 53,444 (95% CI: 37,622-72,882) hospitalizations and 169,949 (95% CI: 118,161-238,630) emergency department visits. Summary benefit-risk ratios for death and hospitalization are 71:1 and 1093:1, respectively."

That number, 14 deaths, fits nicely in my predicted range.

In other words, the vaccine would prevent 71 deaths from rotavirus for every one associated with intussusception.

Quote:
They will help reduce the severity of the illness in babies 3 months old and younger.
Then what happens when you stop breast feeding?

Quote:
My preference is to keep my children healthy for life and that includes keeping medical interventions such as antibiotics, medications, vaccines on the "as needed" only basis. Vaccinating for rotavirus is not necessary. You obviously did not breastfeed. Milk supply keeps up with demand.
Yes, I did breast feed. A baby who is breast feeding can still get dehydrated.

Quote:
By severe illness you mean, dehydration.
No, by severe illness I mean in the pediatric ICU level of disease.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I'm sorry lkb but that is all it takes to earn yourself the label of "anti-vaccine" for the people you are talking to on this thread who are on the "pro" side. Vaccinated for most things but not all gives you the label of "anti-vaxxer". Saying that we should be able to make choices for ourselves is also enough as is questioning any vaccine.

How far would you go in your support of mandates? Eliminating exemptions like CA recently did? Not being able to get a job? Not being able to get a driver's license? Where's the limit and when do mandates just become forced vaccines?
This is the slippery slope fallacy. Vaccines (and mandates) have been around a long time.

Jobs? If you are in health care or your job involves close contact with children you should be vaccinated. That includes flu vaccine. If you do not want to be vaccinated, then choose a different job.

I would suggest perhaps financial incentives to vaccinate: discounts on health insurance premiums, perhaps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
We have no information at all regarding any decrease in deaths so of course there is doubt. Oddly you don't find anything wrong with doubting vaccine injury stories even when injuries are compensated, something that is hard to do even with ample evidence.

If rotavirus deaths were not reportable prior to the vaccine how did they get the 20 to 60 deaths per year number? Obviously they tracked it for at least a portion of time.

You could be guilty of spreading this "FUD" that you so often refer to when promoting vaccines.
You can stop saying this now. I showed you the number: 14 deaths per year in the US prevented by the vaccine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I understand how you think you can claim a number but I also understand that it's based on nothing but a guess.
No, it is an estimate based on the number of deaths pre-vaccine, the number of people vaccinated, and the effectiveness of the vaccine. It is epidemiology 101. But you have previously stated you have no interest in learning about epidemiology, haven't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
My statement was accurate actually and a link you shared through your blog proves it.

http://lizditz.typepad.com/files/con...ug_21_2000.pdf

He voted in favor of getting a rotavirus vaccine onto the schedule. It wasn't his vaccine but it did pave the way for his vaccine to make it's way onto the schedule shortly after. The vaccine he helped approve was removed from the market after just a year due to serious safety concerns.

http://lizditz.typepad.com/files/con...ug_21_2000.pdf
I can only share snippets of this 48 page document but it is worth people's while to read it. This link was posted on an extremely pro-vaccine blog.
Jeepers. You even posted what Dr. Offit said himself, “I’m not conflicted with Wyeth, but because I consult with Merck on the development of rotavirus vaccine, I would still prefer to abstain because it creates a perception of conflict.”

You have a very fundamentally flawed understanding of the concept of conflict of interest with regard to medical research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I'm sorry you aren't understanding what I was stating. I thought I was clear but maybe not. I did not claim that he voted in favor of his own vaccine or even that he was on the committee when that vote occurred. I did say that he helped get a rotavirus vaccine on the schedule which paved the way for his vaccine to eventually get on the schedule. He only recused himself of the vote to take off the dangerous vaccine that he had previously approved off the schedule (which also paved the way for his vaccine to be added at a later date). His was by far not the only conflict of interest. There were a lot.

Please read the report if you would like further clarification on the numerous conflicts of interest that occurred in regards to the rotavirus vaccine approval process. The link I provided came from one of your favorite blogs, "Skeptical Raptor" so I would think you would find it worthy enough to read. The link I proved from this blog is a government report, not a blog post. The title is : Conflicts of Interest in Vaccine Policy Making Majority Staff Report Committee on Government Reform U.S. House of Representatives August 21, 2000"
Yes, the vaccine was approved and then removed from the market, because the surveillance system found a complication that was too rare to show up in the pre-approval studies. His recusal was to avoid any appearance of a conflict of interest. Can't you understand that?

Your last link shows what happens when Congress tries to practice medicine. Some of the committee recommendations would completely preclude input from anyone with expertise on vaccines in discussions about recommendations concerning vaccines. It's a bit like making safety decisions about automobiles with no input from engineers with expertise about automobile safety.

Quote:
I haven't posted any misinformation on the number of deaths from rotavirus which are currently unknown.
The vaccine will prevent about 14 deaths per year. That reduces the number from 20 to 60 down to 6 to 46.
 
Old 04-26-2017, 02:09 PM
 
10,196 posts, read 6,266,403 times
Reputation: 11268
So what is a rotovirus and what is a norovirus? I would suppose unless a doctor tests for it, we will never know. They don't even today. Common "stomach flu" for which an Influenza vax or Rotovirus will not prevent, as my husband thought. lol Suzy Q, argue that one.

As I said, my not quite 2 year old Grandson was vaccinated for Rotovirus but still came down with some kind of severe vomiting and diarrhea, which he passed on to everyone who he came into contact with. Why did this happen when he was vaccinated for Rotovirus? His Newborn Brother was the only human who did not catch it, despite being too young to be vaccinated for a Rotovirus. Even "superhuman" elderly ME caught it!!!! Been there, done that before. No big deal for me, or my elderly husband who wore a Depends to drive back from NY to Florida to get back to work. Elderly people who might DIE without medical treatment???l

To get back in time when all my family (then except me), including infant caught "stomach flu". While breast feeding my infant daughter did not protect her from getting whatever intestinal virus it was, it did prevent her from dehydrating and having to be hospitalized. Rotovirus or Norvirus we will never know. My daughter's now husband had the same condition at the same age but was not being breastfed, and had to be hospitalized and on an IV for dehydration. I even had an big time agrument with her that breastfeeding prevented her DIL from being hospitalized.

Since I am on Ignore by another Medical Professional, Suzy Q do you wish to address the issue of the difference between vaccinated Rotovirus and no vaccine for a Norovirus? I do know that Science is working on a "Norovirus" (all different strains?) vaccine, but will that one be the elimination of all gastrointestional viruses for all vulnerable people from infants to the elderly? It seems to me that with this you are also getting into the realm of a universal influenza vaccine with protects against every possible strain or mutation.
 
Old 04-26-2017, 02:19 PM
 
Location: London
12,275 posts, read 7,104,719 times
Reputation: 13660
Thanks to vaccines we can prevent things like this:

 
Old 04-26-2017, 02:27 PM
 
26,661 posts, read 13,661,026 times
Reputation: 19118
Finally! My question is answered regarding rotavirus deaths. So it is estimated the rotavirus vaccine has reduced the deaths from rotavirus by about 14. So if that is true we went from a range of 20 to 60 deaths per year from rotavirus to a range of 6 to 44. Still quite a range we have there and either way, the risk is extremely low. Hardly something worthy of trying to convince everyone to get on board with the vaccine over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Then what happens when you stop breast feeding?
By that time my babies were well past the age where a gastrointestinal illness was a major threat to their health.

Quote:
No, by severe illness I mean in the pediatric ICU level of disease
How many end up in the ICU and what is the cause of most admitted to the ICU with rotavirus. Dehydration? Are there ways that parents can recognize the signs of dehydration and get help sooner so that their child does not end up in the ICU? I would say so.

Quote:
Jeepers. You even posted what Dr. Offit said himself, “I’m not conflicted with Wyeth, but because I consult with Merck on the development of rotavirus vaccine, I would still prefer to abstain because it creates a perception of conflict.”

You have a very fundamentally flawed understanding of the concept of conflict of interest with regard to medical research.
My understanding of conflicts of interest in regard to medical research is just fine. You just don't understand the point I was making. Please read the link I shared in it's entirety for a lesson on conflicts of interest in terms of vaccines.
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