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Magritte I'm not going to quote your entire post but will one thing:
You don't think parents should act as psuedo-teachers but yet society expects teachers to act as psuedo-parents.
I don't know how old you are but I'll be 63 in a couple months. We had hours of homework every single night. What is different now is that we also had study halls during the day to get some of it done,now most schools don't. We tried it one year and it was a disaster (partly because the teachers covering them wouldn't let the kids do other work but did what they called "Study Hall Lessons". Also, it's now frowned upon to have students start their homework in class instead of teaching what's called " bell to bell".
Instead of blaming teachers for this you need to place the blame where it belongs, on Departments of Education, School Boards, educational theorists in academia, the Gates and Broad Foundation as as well as Pearson Education, not to mention the parents who demand it. For every parent I had who complained about giving too much homework I had 10 or 15 who complained that I didn't give enough.
I'm nearly 40 years old.
I expect social public services to perform the work they are tasked with. In this case, I expect the schools to educate all children including those with delays, disabilities, and uninvolved parents/guardians. That is the purpose of a public school system.
That's really stupid re: study halls. My son has complained about that as well. Isn't the purpose of study hall to ... study?
As I said in my first post on this thread, I lay blame at the feet of administrators - all of those you've mentioned. You'll never satisfy everyone, but when you base your system on evidenced based research, you're going a long way in improving education. I think some people equate more work with more success. The right way, IMHO, to look at it is working smarter, not harder.
There are so many flawed assumptions and weak logical connections here that it hardly seems worth the effort of going through them. I think most who read stuff like this can easily see the problems with it, but still, this sort of thinking is mainstream. Is it any wonder so many people are mistrustful of public education?
Not sure what you think I said was incorrect....
Does Finland have a socialized educational system - YES
Does Finland limit options for education to its public (no homeschool, private schools limited, etc.) - YES
Does Finland have high quality, highly respected educators and administrators (high expectations) - YES
Does Finland have varied (diverse) income levels - YES
Has Finland accepted a large amount of immigrant over the last 10 years - YES
All of the above are reasons why they lead in education. FWIW, China is similar. Both of these countries have strictly run "state" schools.
And FWIW, I don't necessarily think they are "better" than the American system of choice. However, I do think those of you who view our system as "socialized" are kidding yourselves. I value the choice we have in our country in regards to education. I also am vastly aware of the fact that these choices, and especially charter schools, magnet public schools, and private vouchers, reduce the quality of public education. The reason why Finland scores well is because they don't have any of the above. Also because they provide universal pre-k starting at age 3 as does many other European countries. Though many admire the fact that kids "start school" at age 7 in Finland, they actually have a very robust, socialized, state funded pre-school program.
Does Finland have a socialized educational system - YES
Does Finland limit options for education to its public (no homeschool, private schools limited, etc.) - YES
Does Finland have high quality, highly respected educators and administrators (high expectations) - YES
Does Finland have varied (diverse) income levels - YES
Has Finland accepted a large amount of immigrant over the last 10 years - YES
All of the above are reasons why they lead in education. FWIW, China is similar. Both of these countries have strictly run "state" schools.
And FWIW, I don't necessarily think they are "better" than the American system of choice. However, I do think those of you who view our system as "socialized" are kidding yourselves. I value the choice we have in our country in regards to education. I also am vastly aware of the fact that these choices, and especially charter schools, magnet public schools, and private vouchers, reduce the quality of public education. The reason why Finland scores well is because they don't have any of the above. Also because they provide universal pre-k starting at age 3 as does many other European countries. Though many admire the fact that kids "start school" at age 7 in Finland, they actually have a very robust, socialized, state funded pre-school program.
Does Finland have a socialized educational system - YES
Does Finland limit options for education to its public (no homeschool, private schools limited, etc.) - YES
Does Finland have high quality, highly respected educators and administrators (high expectations) - YES, so we hear
Does Finland have varied (diverse) income levels - Not really Lack of Poverty in Finland - BORGEN
"There is not much to discuss when it comes to poverty in Finland. Finland has the second lowest relative poverty rate for children in the world at 5.3 percent, according to UNICEF. In 2012, Finland also had one of Europe’s lowest rates—5.5 percent—of people living below the poverty threshold (with a threshold at 50 percent of the national median income)." "Current estimates on poverty in the U.S. The official poverty rate is 13.5 percent, based on the U.S. Census Bureau's 2015 estimates." What is the current poverty rate in the United States? - UC Davis Center for Poverty Research
Does Finland have a socialized educational system - YES
Does Finland limit options for education to its public (no homeschool, private schools limited, etc.) - YES
Does Finland have high quality, highly respected educators and administrators (high expectations) - YES
Does Finland have varied (diverse) income levels - YES
Has Finland accepted a large amount of immigrant over the last 10 years - YES
All of the above are reasons why they lead in education. FWIW, China is similar. Both of these countries have strictly run "state" schools.
And FWIW, I don't necessarily think they are "better" than the American system of choice. However, I do think those of you who view our system as "socialized" are kidding yourselves. I value the choice we have in our country in regards to education. I also am vastly aware of the fact that these choices, and especially charter schools, magnet public schools, and private vouchers, reduce the quality of public education. The reason why Finland scores well is because they don't have any of the above. Also because they provide universal pre-k starting at age 3 as does many other European countries. Though many admire the fact that kids "start school" at age 7 in Finland, they actually have a very robust, socialized, state funded pre-school program.
Right but their preschool is not as rigid as ours here. They take an extremely laid back approach opting to do crafts, take the kids on all day nature hikes, etc. The kids aren't sitting in a classroom methodically learning their ABCs.
Does Finland have a socialized educational system - YES
Does Finland limit options for education to its public (no homeschool, private schools limited, etc.) - YES
Does Finland have high quality, highly respected educators and administrators (high expectations) - YES, so we hear
Does Finland have varied (diverse) income levels - Not really Lack of Poverty in Finland - BORGEN
"There is not much to discuss when it comes to poverty in Finland. Finland has the second lowest relative poverty rate for children in the world at 5.3 percent, according to UNICEF. In 2012, Finland also had one of Europe’s lowest rates—5.5 percent—of people living below the poverty threshold (with a threshold at 50 percent of the national median income)." "Current estimates on poverty in the U.S. The official poverty rate is 13.5 percent, based on the U.S. Census Bureau's 2015 estimates." What is the current poverty rate in the United States? - UC Davis Center for Poverty Research
Right but their preschool is not as rigid as ours here. They take an extremely laid back approach opting to do crafts, take the kids on all day nature hikes, etc. The kids aren't sitting in a classroom methodically learning their ABCs.
The work in these Finnish day cares is called "Educare". The people who work there are called teachers. You better believe when they have these kids all day, every day, they're teaching them something, even if indirectly. US preschools aren't as you describe in the bold, either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25
Finland has such a low poverty rate because of their wide ranging social welfare programs. That's not a bad thing.
That being said, there are still rich and poor in that country.
Your point? My point was just that they don't have a lot of poverty.
Right but their preschool is not as rigid as ours here. They take an extremely laid back approach opting to do crafts, take the kids on all day nature hikes, etc. The kids aren't sitting in a classroom methodically learning their ABCs.
Children learn best through play based instruction. Those children also get read to a lot and have a lot of project based learning. Many American children have parents who have never read a book to their kids, then they are sent to kindergarten at age 5 or 6 three years behind the average Finnish student who benefitted from play based learning and reading at school and it was mandatory in many instances for them.
My children also went to play based preschools. They are available here in the US and they have the best educational outcomes for young children. Unfortunately though, those types of schools here cost a lot of money. My youngest child, I had to pay about $11,000 a year for her to go to preschool and that was a cheap program. Other parents I know paid that amount for a half day program and double that (or more) for a full day program. We lived in GA when my youngest was 4 and they also have a voluntary, free Pre-K program. That program in the school that had an available spot was very poor compared to the one I paid for starting for her at age 2.75 (she has a fall birthday). I didn't want to pay for a 2nd year of preschool due to her fall birthday, so enrolled her in public pre-k and it was a horrible experience for her. They mostly did worksheets and didn't have project based learning. Not all of them are like this in GA BTW but the "good ones" who have the above fill up fast. So I ended up switching her back to the expensive school.
Does Finland have a socialized educational system - YES
Does Finland limit options for education to its public (no homeschool, private schools limited, etc.) - YES
Does Finland have high quality, highly respected educators and administrators (high expectations) - YES, so we hear
Does Finland have varied (diverse) income levels - Not really Lack of Poverty in Finland - BORGEN
"There is not much to discuss when it comes to poverty in Finland. Finland has the second lowest relative poverty rate for children in the world at 5.3 percent, according to UNICEF. In 2012, Finland also had one of Europe’s lowest rates—5.5 percent—of people living below the poverty threshold (with a threshold at 50 percent of the national median income)." "Current estimates on poverty in the U.S. The official poverty rate is 13.5 percent, based on the U.S. Census Bureau's 2015 estimates." What is the current poverty rate in the United States? - UC Davis Center for Poverty Research
And I agree with you on China but many on this board, including the poster I responded to, believe that Asians are genetically predisposed to be superior intellectually based on them being Asian and they frequently cite PISA scores of China.
But fact of the matter remains - Finland has less choices in education. Due to that, they have a very good, robust, fully supported system.
Americans always like to disagree and don't go along easily like many in Europeans countries due to them having much more and being used to intense socialistic sorts of societies. Due to me loving history, I firmly believe that this is due in part (in some European countries) to the devastation Europe felt a a result of WW2. In the UK the NHS system began after WW2 due to a desire of the government to take care of the populace who had fought and suffered so much and so hard for their country. Other countries on the continent followed this trend and provided more healthcare and educational opportunities for their populace that was state controlled. More people trusted government back then due to experiences in that war. Nothing in the US IMO compares to what Europe went through, except maybe the Civil War and that war really didn't solve any of the issues as it relates to racism, classism, or regionalism in this country.
I have been thinking about this question for a while mostly because my sister is a teacher. She has taught public school for over fifteen years. She has taught at many different cities and a wide range of public schools that ranged from good to bad, and large to small. One thing she use to tell me was that she could always tell how good a public school would be based on the quality of the parents because the quality of the parents often reflected the quality of the students.
Now my sister has taught at some **** poor public schools, and she could always tell early on that her teaching experience at these public schools was going to be tough. My sister would tell me that home environment more than anything determines the quality of students. When you have large swarths of children coming from broken home environments that do not value education it makes for a tough teaching experience. For instance, at these poor public schools, my sister would rarely if ever meet any of the fathers of her students. Often times she and other administrators would only meet with parents if they were pissed that their child got punished but not if they were failing math for example. The students would act out and act extremely disrespectful to the teachers interrupting valuable classroom time and ruining the ability for other students to learn. The only exceptions to the rule were poor immigrant families usually from Asia. Many of these students were wonderful to teach had very involved parents and most would go on to good colleges.
The good public schools my sister taught at were the complete opposite. Mothers were very involved, most students had their fathers in their life, sure there were some disrespectful punks they never became a huge distraction. Overall, my sister could tell that most parents deeply cared about their children and wanted them to succeed academicallly, this alone made for a better teaching environment.
Anyways the reason I made this thread is because when we talk about poor public school education we rarely if ever blame the parents. Don't get me wrong there are terrible teachers and administrators out there, but ultimately the home environment in my opinion shapes a student more than anything. Teachers are not there to be a 2nd mommmy to students, if a child isn't learning to value education at home then there is very little a teacher can do for them. Throwing money at the problem doesn't seem to help either, a new shiny textbook isn't suddenly going to make a student who is constantly skipping class suddenly stay at school more. Only a parent can do that....
So my question is, why don't we hold parents more responsible for the quality of public schools?
Because it's the villages fault for not raising the kids properly
If you can't afford to have a stay at home parent, you can't afforded to breed.
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