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"As a people we are fighting to maintain the heavenly ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race, ..." William Thompson, the guy who designed the Confederate flag.
"Southern pride" in what? Slavery? Traitors?
I have posted that quote by William Tappan Thomson several times on other threads. Few people listen.
The flag has been a symbol of Southern Pride since the war. Unfortunately, racists also hijacked the use of it.
Flying the flag does not equate being a racist.
Is there nothing else, nothing finer and less reminiscent of exploitation and bloodshed, that could just as easily be a symbol of southern pride which could be enjoyed by all southerners?
Is there nothing else, nothing finer and less reminiscent of exploitation and bloodshed, that could just as easily be a symbol of southern pride which could be enjoyed by all southerners?
There are different ethnic groups in the south. The Fleur-de-lis is a symbol of New Orleans Creole heritage for example.
I do tend to think of the St Andrew's Cross as a Anglo-Celtic southern symbol. Now, I wouldn't be broken up to see a different version of the cross (Scotland's flag is the preeminent version of this. Nova Scotia has a similar flag). Colin Woodard's American Nations says there is at least 1 example of Appalachian overmountain patriots carrying the Scottish saltire into battle against Crown Loyalist forces in the American Revolution.
There has been some discussion of this here and there, either a US stripes with the star field replaced by a St Andrew's Cross, or a blue background with a starless red cross, or even adopting a Ulster-Scottish symbol (for the Scots-Irish in America) as this https://goo.gl/images/rVYjHD
or
even this (I think its too busy but its uniquely American) https://goo.gl/images/w8SS5p
or https://goo.gl/images/Ipafbg
I do think that instead of putting down the Civil War heritage the movement needs to move more toward embracing colonial and Revolutionary War history (which the south-east has a TON of yet people are completely unaware).
I don't think you will see a real southern flag...yet. At least for all southerners. Culture is still segregated (as it is up north or in the Hispanic southwest for example). Even my own idea of identity is Anglo-Celtic Southern American in that order (but I do feel like I have more in common with a black woman from the south that I might with a white woman from Michigan, generally speaking)
And after Hitler and the Nazis went the way of the dodo bird, there was a De-Nazification campaign. Anything honoring the Nazis was taken down. It was understood that paying homage to Hitler/Nazis was basically paying tribute to a bigoted murderer. Removing that obelisk in New Orleans is in that same category. Some things do not deserve tribute.
I don't think folks from Germany would understand the Confederate Monument mania & schtick. It would be akin to them erecting a statue to the Nazi death camp commander Amon Goeth in the Czech Republic town of Svitavy, the birthplace of Oskar Schindler, the man who rescued 1,200 Jews.
In Germany (& about a dozen other European Countries), the denial of the systematic genocidal killing of millions of ethnic groups in Europe by Nazi Germany in the 1930s & 40s is illegal.
In other words, the removal, or revision, or denial of history is banned & sometimes criminalized. Gotta come to the USA to be a Holocaust denier.
I don't think folks from Germany would understand the homage, tributes & honors given to Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest, leader of the 'Fort Pillow massacre' (& others like him who've been lionized). General Forest was called 'the Butcher' & that by the men who served under him. Achilles V. Clark, a soldier with the 20th Tennessee Cavalry who served under General Forrest during the 1864 massacre at Fort Pillow, wrote to his sister after the attack:
Quote:
“The slaughter was awful. Words cannot describe the scene. The poor deluded negroes would run up to our men, fall upon their knees, and with uplifted hands scream for mercy but they were ordered to their feet and then shot down. … I, with several others, tried to stop the butchery, and at one time had partially succeeded, but General Forrest ordered them shot down like dogs and the carnage continued. Finally our men became sick of blood and the firing ceased.”
I don't think folks from Germany would understand the Confederate Monument mania & schtick. It would be akin to them erecting a statue to the Nazi death camp commander Amon Goeth in the Czech Republic town of Svitavy, the birthplace of Oskar Schindler, the man who rescued 1,200 Jews.
In Germany (& about a dozen other European Countries), the denial of the systematic genocidal killing of millions of ethnic groups in Europe by Nazi Germany in the 1930s & 40s is illegal.
In other words, the removal, or revision, or denial of history is banned & sometimes criminalized. Gotta come to the USA to be a Holocaust denier.
I don't think folks from Germany would understand the homage, tributes & honors given to Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest, leader of the 'Fort Pillow massacre' (& others like him who've been lionized). General Forest was called 'the Butcher' & that by the men who served under him. Achilles V. Clark, a soldier with the 20th Tennessee Cavalry who served under General Forrest during the 1864 massacre at Fort Pillow, wrote to his sister after the attack:
It would never go down well in Germany. One reason Nazism is looked down on in Germany. It is understood what it did. You learn from it. You don't glorify it.
I didn't know about the Ft. Pillow Massacre. It was never taught to us in high school(I went to high school in the early 2000s). Knowing that gives much more reason not to honor the likes of Nathan Bedford Forrest. That and him being the founder of the KKK. There was a park in Memphis named for him.
This is what I make of paying homage, tribute, and honor to Confederates such as Forrest. The South was doing this out of anger. Anger from being defeated. Anger at the idea that their "way of life", their "heritage" would disappear. Anger at the idea of the racial hierarchy being up-ended and destroyed. The Southern way of life up to the Civil War was agrarian, a plantation economy, and based on slavery. There was a strong racial hierarchy in the South. Actually, there has been racism everywhere in America. However, as it applies to the South, there was a belief that the Black man was meant to be a slave, that it was the African's natural condition. The result of the Civil War meant no more slavery. Reconstruction meant Blacks could participate in society alongside Whites. There were many in the South were enraged by this. I think this is where the honoring of Confederates came from. Secession was a last bid to keep the slave system and the "southern way of life" alive. When it failed, alot of anger came from that. Jim Crow was a last bid to keep the racial hierarchy alive, to keep others down.
I agree entirely, in my view the Confederates were basically traitors. We shouldn't be honoring traitors.
LBJ had a great quote that explains why so many folks from down South were willing to fight for a repulsive system:
And LBJ was right on ....
The truth is, this whole thing with the Confederate flags down South only came about after the Civil Rights movement in the 1960s. Nobody flew the Confederate flag over the South Carolina Capitol until 1961 ... in direct response to *gasp* the Federal government having the audacity (how dare they!) to demand that all Americans be treated equally under the law regardless of their skin color. The monuments though tend to be older (primarily 1920s or older).
LBJ had a point. One thing about the South is this. It has long lagged behind. There might have been alot of wealth in the South, but so much of the population was very poor. It was an aristocracy-based society with a few people on top, and then the rest of the population was very poor, or enslaved. Much of the South had elements of a banana republic. An economy dependent on exporting a few limited resources. In the South's case it was cotton. A few ruling class plutocrats/planters and alot of poor Whites/enslaved Blacks.
The aristocracy felt little need to industrialize or make the South better. However, it did have a need to keep its own economy going. The poor couldn't afford slaves. However, it was considered a status symbol. It was considered a necessity. It was being taught that slavery was essential to the South's way of life, the economy, the social order. Being poor, naturally, you want to move up in status. Being poor bites, but the idea is "at least I'm not Black, and maybe one day I will be a slave owner, and move up in rank".
Jim Crow was a continuation of the old ways. Jim Crow was a way of continuing the racial hierarchy. It was a way of keeping people down. Alot of it was fear. The idea was "protect our way of life by excluding Blacks from political, social, and economy advantages". Blacks were a majority in some parts of the South. Many people feared this. The idea was "we don't want Blacks in charge". Keeping Blacks economically, socially, and politically subjugated was considered like a protection by those who supported Jim Crow. The attitude was "they're beneath us, and we don't want them having a say. If they have their say, we're in trouble". It is irrational thinking, but alot of things weren't rational in those days.
Honoring Confederate traitors was basically like licking one's wounds. People felt defeated, but it was a way of making people feel better about themselves. The "Lost Cause" mythology was basically that. It was a way of not having to take responsibility. It meant never having to say "I'm sorry" or "We were wrong for wanting to hold on to such evils. It wasn't worth the cost". Instead, it was at first "we fought to keep the old way of life". Nowadays, the "states rights" thing is brought up.
And the Democratic Party switched platforms after the 1960s. What does any of this have to do with taken down Confederate monuments?
Really? So it only took the Republicans 100 years to get them to face up to their racism? Again, African American support of the Democratic Party is the biggest case of Stockholm Syndrome in history.
Can't you see just how destructive their policies have been towards African Americans? You think it's an accident? Welfare, food stamps...all this designed to keep African Americans down.
I don't think folks from Germany would understand the Confederate Monument mania & schtick. It would be akin to them erecting a statue to the Nazi death camp commander Amon Goeth in the Czech Republic town of Svitavy, the birthplace of Oskar Schindler, the man who rescued 1,200 Jews.
In Germany (& about a dozen other European Countries), the denial of the systematic genocidal killing of millions of ethnic groups in Europe by Nazi Germany in the 1930s & 40s is illegal.
In other words, the removal, or revision, or denial of history is banned & sometimes criminalized. Gotta come to the USA to be a Holocaust denier.
I don't think folks from Germany would understand the homage, tributes & honors given to Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest, leader of the 'Fort Pillow massacre' (& others like him who've been lionized). General Forest was called 'the Butcher' & that by the men who served under him. Achilles V. Clark, a soldier with the 20th Tennessee Cavalry who served under General Forrest during the 1864 massacre at Fort Pillow, wrote to his sister after the attack:
“The slaughter was awful. Words cannot describe the scene. The poor deluded negroes would run up to our men, fall upon their knees, and with uplifted hands scream for mercy but they were ordered to their feet and then shot down. … I, with several others, tried to stop the butchery, and at one time had partially succeeded, but General Forrest ordered them shot down like dogs and the carnage continued. Finally our men became sick of blood and the firing ceased.”
Really? So it only took the Republicans 100 years to get them to face up to their racism? Again, African American support of the Democratic Party is the biggest case of Stockholm Syndrome in history.
Can't you see just how destructive their policies have been towards African Americans? You think it's an accident? Welfare, food stamps...all this designed to keep African Americans down.
If African-American support for the Democratic Party is such a bad thing, consider this. The number of African-Americans with university degrees, jobs in engineering, medicine, education, other professional fields has increased significantly since the days of LBJ. African-Americans have universal voting rights just like anyway else. Everyone has the same rights.
As for welfare and food stamps, they don't keep African-Americans, or anyone else down. People choose to use those things. It is up to the people to decide to treat such things as a hand up, or a hand out.
This whole "Blacks are too dumb to know what's best for them" is a joke. The majority of Blacks voting Democrat are not poor or on welfare. Explain why middle class Blacks, who are doing well for themselves, vote Democrat.
Honoring Confederate traitors was basically like licking one's wounds. People felt defeated, but it was a way of making people feel better about themselves. The "Lost Cause" mythology was basically that. It was a way of not having to take responsibility. It meant never having to say "I'm sorry" or "We were wrong for wanting to hold on to such evils. It wasn't worth the cost". Instead, it was at first "we fought to keep the old way of life". Nowadays, the "states rights" thing is brought up.
Or some will insist it was actually all about money.
No, it was about white supremacy.
It was about the slave owners wanting to keep their slaves.
Why non-slave owners went along with this lost cause is anybody's guess. Why the U.S. allowed Confederate memorials, flags, and celebrations to continue is also somewhat of a mystery.
Mississippi and Alabama still celebrate Confederates Memorial Day. Georgia has renamed it but still observes it on the same day.
Can you imagine the Germans supporting an annual Nazi Memorial day as a state holiday?
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