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You say you don't want to BUTT in, but then you do.
Yes, I have suggested that "libertarians" (or whatever you want to call yourselves) ought to practice what they preach and live independent of all government (i.e. public) assistance. It's pretty logical. And, by saying you should live off the land, I'm using the very same "slippery slope" rhetorical device that conservatives and libertarians use ALL the time, often here on CD and in other online forums. When a left-leaning or liberal poster (or "libta*d" in con/libertarian speak) says they believe in social democratic principles, that could only mean one thing, according to the cons and libertarians: that poster is a "socialist" or a "commie" or a "traitor," etc. (in fact, you employed this very tactic in your post above. Because I believe in universal health care, I MUST be a "Marxist." The fact that I'm not even especially liberal is, apparently, impossible).
"If X, then, of course, Y." Is that it? Well, I'm turning your "logic" back on you.
I employed the same exaggerated logic you all do. Clearly, my suggestion that y'all become independent mountainmen is hyperbole. It's meant to be. My real point -- again! -- is that, if so-called libertarians and conservatives preach "limited government," if you rail against government-sponsored social programs, such as universal healthcare, because they're "communist" or "Marxist," then why do you many of you self-proclaimed libertarians and conservatives so often use plenty of other government social programs when it suits you? Why do you apply for housing assistance? Why do use unemployment insurance? Paid vacations and holidays? Disability insurance? Food/nutrition assistance? Government sponsored rehabilitation programs? I work for a government nonprofit in an overwhelmingly red state. I see this EVERY day.
I noticed that YOU, too, ignored the points I made about so many conservatives/libertarians (ie. red states) being so unhealthy. I'm not making that up: national health data proves this over and over again. So, since the topic of this thread IS healthcare (not Adam Smith or your own political ideologies), I'll ask these questions for the THIRD time now:
Why do most of you have employer-sponsored health insurance? Why don't you pay for your OWN insurance? And WHY do so many of you allow yourselves to become so unhealthy, which, in turn, demands the need for so much health care, which, in turn, drives up the costs of everyone else's health insurance? MY insurance.
And all of that is even BEFORE you go on Medicare at 65. As senior citizens, you cost me even MORE money with all the expensive medical procedures lots of you end up needing. As someone who has always lived pretty cleanly, I resent having to pay higher insurance rates because so many of YOU don't take care of yourselves. YOU are stealing from ME. YOU are imposing your careless, irresponsible lifestyles onto ME.
Using your formula, why should people who try to live healthfully have to pay higher insurance because of people who CHOOSE to eat poorly, do little to no exercise, smoke and/or engage in other addictions, drink too much, etc?
Could someone answer these questions? Maybe?
Oh, and I read a lot of Adam Smith in my economics, political science, history, and philosophy classes as an undergraduate. My dad, a stoic, frugal Scotsman like Adam Smith, was also a voracious reader, and often discussed economics. So, I'm quite familiar with Smith. Thanks, though. It was awfully nice of you to "school" me in Econ101.
Agree with much here. These acolytes of Ayn Rand et al need a new schtick, this same o lame o sophistry was old 3 or 4 decades ago:
Quote:
...Finally, Rand relented. “Whether she agreed or not is not the issue,” said Pryor, “She saw the necessity for both her and [her husband] Frank.” Or as Weiss puts it, “Reality had intruded upon her ideological pipedreams.” That’s one way of interpreting the contradiction: that Rand’s philosophy, Objectivism, “has no practical purpose except to promote the economic interests of the people bankrolling it”—the sole function of her thought is to justify wealth, explain away poverty, and normalize the sort of Hobbesian war of all against all Rand saw as a societal ideal. ...
I was a badly abused child. My father was a drunk and my mother beat me to the point of being hospitalized numerous times. I was neglected so bad I spent a month in the hospital at the age of 12. I left home at 15 and went into the foster care system. I still graduated HS. Then I went to work. I learned a trade but decided I wanted more in life. After working several years, I went to college and still worked, paying for most of college as I went, then paying off what little I borrowed within 4 years of graduating college. I EARNED an electrical engineering degree. No one handed it to me. I sold myself to a potential employer & they liked what they saw. We had an excellent relationship even after I retired AND I retired early on my savings that, via my own sacrifice, is pretty substantial. I will get my full retirement, a retirement I EARNED when I turn 65.
Don't tell me it can't be done. Don't tell me I can't understand. Don't give me all the BS excuses. I lived a nightmare life as a child. In 3 years as a foster child I was in 30 different placements because I was so unaccustomed to being a "normal" child due to my violent upbringing. I had to learn to be different than I was taught all my life.
Fortunately one of my first foster parents taught me to pay myself by saving and investing a portion of everything I earned. I worked at a couple minimum wage jobs for a short period. I made those sacrifices and now I live a very nice life. Don't tell me it can't be done.
I WASN'T lucky. I EARNED what I earned and what I've got. You didn't earn ANY of what I have for me, "I" did.
Im sorry you had such a hard life, but you need to understand that not everyone haves the strenght that you have, and that there are people who cant overcome every tragedy that comes their way. Im not gonna say if its easy or hard to overcome tragedies cause i didnt have it nowhere as hard, but i dont feel entitled to judge another human being who might had it much much harder than me. I try to be compassionate. You might have earned everything you have yourself, but that doesnt mean everyone can do what you did.
Life is very very cruel with some. The least i can do with the luck i got is be compassionate and help in any way i can. Thats how i feel about life and its been my principle since i started teaching kids in slums when i was 21. I live for this and cant imagine a life in where i became enraged to those less fortunate, instead of helping them.
Why are you so obsessed with repeatedly telling people 6,000 miles away how much you have? Reeks of insecurity.
I never talk about "what i have", unless im in a topic forum in where most people is convinced that "lefties" are bums that dont wanna work and are after their money. Im not after anyones money, i dont need anyones money. If anything, it hurts to live in a world were many have SO much and many more have almost nothing.
And for every person that had a terrible upbringing and is not succeeding, there are just as many that did succeed. Same with privileged upbringing - there is no guarantee that it brings success.
As for the rest, I'm still waiting for your answer on when you will give away all the unearned spoils of your privileged upbringing? You can start with me, since you obviously support giving earned goods to those less fortunate.
You think that the fact that i think is unfair people got nothing while others are super rich means i need to donate everything i have and go live under a bridge??
You would be surprised at everything i gave away. Mostly A LOT of my time, weekly, for over 13 years. Been traching kids for a looong time now and im a member of 2 organizations. One helps poor kids and the other helps abused women. I ve seen people completely broken since i was very young.
Besides a career, the car i use and my home (that i rent) i dont live with much. Rarely ever buy clothes or travel and, now that i have a baby, we are saving money for his future.
When i get the inheritance ill probably do some big charity work, me and my husband are thinking in building a shelter, but still, that inheritance probably wont happen for at least 20 years.
Many people are attacking me for my beliefs. But I do not let it bother me. Where are the liberals on this forum?
Well, im one. There use to be a lot in this thread but a couple of pages ago this got invaded by some very very loud right wingers who would repeat nonsense over nonsense and i guess a lot of them got tired of all that pointless arguing.
You need to understand that if you say you need "paid vacations" they are gonna muder you here. You seem to embody the version of the left right wingers made up, wich is lazy people who want everything handed to them. When, in fact, no one in this thread said anything remotely like what you are saying until you arrived.
Wich makes me think you are either a right wing troll "mocking" the left, or a very misguided individual.
Many people are attacking me for my beliefs. But I do not let it bother me. Where are the liberals on this forum?
Right here, but you should take a hard look at some of your views.
The facts don't lie, the more dependent people are on government, the more unrest there is. Safety nets are important, and I think we could do a lot to fix them. But the fact of the matter is treading water will never get you to shore.
I believe the government has a role in preventing the powerful people from abusing their influence, but at the moment, the government is essentially compromised. Do you really want to waste your short life to wait around and hope something changes to fix all your problems?
I ain't waiting. That's why I am on here trying to help.
You're helping yourself how?
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The fact that I'm not even especially liberal is, apparently, impossible).
