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Old 05-20-2017, 12:55 PM
 
8,061 posts, read 4,855,581 times
Reputation: 2460

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As long as these programs are designed to help Americans Only and we do have Generational Benefits. Public Help is help not a life of wages and Benefits.

 
Old 05-20-2017, 01:01 PM
 
Location: USA
7,474 posts, read 7,002,449 times
Reputation: 12503
Quote:
Originally Posted by NxtGen View Post
If anyone was even remotely interested they can read the US Constitution, then... also read the debates from the founders to get proper context on the powers of government and one consistent theme in those debates and through numerous statements as well is taxes were not to be used for the sake of such social programs, that by such authority, the government could manipulate, justify and condemn the people to tyranny, exactly what progressives want, a government with complete control over the people.
Right-wing drivel like the above is hilarious.

No right-winger yet has offered a single valid idea how a nation would function without taxation. Instead, they either propose insanity, like, "Derp, uh... big business will freely build and maintain all the roads and bridges and schools because they are great and really would love to not make profits ever again!" Or, they default back to the "states rights" BS, which is just shifting the taxation down a level, but allowing states to deny civil rights and infrastructure to unpopular minorities.

I do get a particular laugh out of the claim that "progressives want the government to control everyone." Nope. It's the right-wing nuts jobs who want the government monitoring the bedrooms, temples, and everything else. Progressives are just fans of "stupid things" like bridges, roads, clear air and water, and so forth.

Funny how it works. A nation full of right-wing cowards that trumpet the glory of existing without laws, governments or taxes - but everyone can have lots of guns! - and yet none of them want to move to such places. The world is full of failed states that are perfect for right-wingers - in many of them, you can even kill "those people" if you like - but they instead continue to live comfortably in America, benefiting from the taxes that they so hate.

Hypocrisy and cowardice are the calling cards of the far-right, as always.
 
Old 05-20-2017, 01:07 PM
 
3,611 posts, read 3,858,466 times
Reputation: 2267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123 View Post
Progressives are just fans of "stupid things" like bridges, roads, clear air and water, and so forth.
You're arguing against a strawman. Infrastructure & rule-of-law represent a small proportion of government spending -- a small proportion that most conservatives are perfectly fine with. Most conservatives, again, do support some small level of taxation to support that. It's the social programs this thread is talking about that (followed by the military & debt service) make up most US federal spending, and absorb most tax dollars & debt creation, that conservatives tend to (often selectively) oppose.
 
Old 05-20-2017, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
2,186 posts, read 1,160,635 times
Reputation: 1015
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
Not really. I've asked this before......how exactly do you expect charity to cover the health needs of millions?
States.
 
Old 05-20-2017, 01:22 PM
 
Location: London
12,275 posts, read 7,083,256 times
Reputation: 13659
Quote:
Originally Posted by maat55 View Post
States.
So, taxes. Just at the state level.
 
Old 05-20-2017, 01:23 PM
 
3,611 posts, read 3,858,466 times
Reputation: 2267
Quote:
Originally Posted by maat55 View Post
States.
to be fair, state taxation to spend for transfer payments has most of the same problems as federal spending. It is somewhat better because less ability to issue debt means the bill has to be paid today rather than foisted on future generations and that one can if things get sufficiently bad in an area vote with their feet (this also benefits people on the flip side).

Of course, this only works for larger states -- if Vermont alone (to give a recent example) had gone ahead with single payer, I would have drummed up some capital from friends & family for a REIT & driven up there to look into investing into the cheapest rental homes I could find in walking distance of the best hospitals.
 
Old 05-20-2017, 01:24 PM
 
79,902 posts, read 43,892,008 times
Reputation: 17184
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALackOfCreativity View Post
You're arguing against a strawman. Infrastructure & rule-of-law represent a small proportion of government spending -- a small proportion that most conservatives are perfectly fine with. Most conservatives, again, do support some small level of taxation to support that. It's the social programs this thread is talking about that (followed by the military & debt service) make up most US federal spending, and absorb most tax dollars & debt creation, that conservatives tend to (often selectively) oppose.
Oppose in words only when it comes to the military and debt service.
 
Old 05-20-2017, 01:25 PM
 
79,902 posts, read 43,892,008 times
Reputation: 17184
Quote:
Originally Posted by maat55 View Post
States.
It's unlikely they can cover everyone but feel free to present a program for all to consider. I don't care how it is we do this.
 
Old 05-20-2017, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Philaburbia
41,737 posts, read 74,703,059 times
Reputation: 66675
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
i dont think american are against social programs per say, what they are against the these programs being FEDERAL programs. most of the crap the feds cover should be done at the state level. a one size fits all program doesnt fit anyone.
Providing for basic human needs fits everyone.

And the phrase is per se.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
Exactly! Government doesn't have a heart. A person being told they have to take care of others (through compulsory taxation) is not being a generous person. People-in-need need moral support first and foremost, not simply a hand-out from an indifferent bureaucracy.
Bullcrap. Heart or generosity are not the issue; recognizing and honoring a responsibility toward others is.
Do we, as a nation, have a responsibility toward our fellow countrymen?

As for that "moral support" -- LMAO. How is that alone going to help anyone?

Quote:
Years ago, all charity was provided privately. The socialists wanted to take power away from churches and charities because they knew they could control the proletariat by doing so.
Bullcrap. Publicly funded benefits started because private charity could not or would not keep people from falling through the cracks. Or dying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOinGA View Post
They are only against social programs that benefit other people. When they or their family members need help, somehow they convince themselves that they are deserving of it.
You got that right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ottomobeale View Post
And farmers who hate welfare but love farm supports.
And Disney execs who hate welfare but fire US IT people to hire H1bs etc
And all those corporate execs who get tax abatements and other breaks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Joshua View Post
All of my friends and family have fed, clothed, and housed their families without any help.

I'm willing to help people in need. I'm not willing to help people who suck.
You sure about that? No one in your family has ever received a government benefit? Why are you so bitter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
Not really. I've asked this before......how exactly do you expect charity to cover the health needs of millions?
Don't bother, because they can't answer that one.
 
Old 05-20-2017, 01:30 PM
 
33 posts, read 30,051 times
Reputation: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123 View Post
The Just World Fallacy, along with basic selfishness, drives them, particularly those on the far-right.

The Just World Fallacy is grossly inaccurate view of the world that assumes a "just god" or some other force that immediately and accurately balances everything so everyone "gets what they deserve in life." Many people - again, particularly those on the far-right - believe this nonsense since it ties into their religious beliefs and need to feel that "god is in control." So, for these types, we don't need social programs since if somebody is sick, poor, out of work, injured, or whatever, they clearly did something to "deserve it" because "god is in charge." There's also the convenience of reducing tax costs by letting "those people" just die off, but they don't like to talk about that since it reveals their pettiness to the world.

Now, common sense blasts the Just World Fallacy out of the water. A simple visit to a child's cancer ward makes it clear there is no real justice in the world... or, go spend some times among crippled and homeless veterans. But for those who buy into the Just World Fallacy, facts don't matter. Oh, sure - they'll make exceptions for the unlucky people they know - and themselves, of course, because hypocrisy is also at the core of this belief system - but for everyone else, they "get what they deserve in life." If you're poor, sick, out of work, or whatever, it's your own damn fault, and you should just drop dead. Then, many of them go to mass on Sundays, sing along with the choir, and listen to wonderful gospel readings about charity that go in one ear and out the other.

Those who buy into the Just World Fallacy are not only ignorant, but are often also horrible hypocrites - but they are as common as waves on the sea in America these days.
So true. What's sad is Americans love to view the sick and poor as akin to the way people in India do regarding caste system. They probably think Manifest Destiny was awesome to.
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