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Old 05-19-2017, 02:48 PM
 
Location: USA
5,093 posts, read 4,194,681 times
Reputation: 9463

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And here we have yet another whiny, right-wing thread started with "liberals" in the title on City Data, making it clear facts aren't welcome. But I'll toss them out anyway.

"Liberals" don't have a problem with Christians. We DO have a problem with religious extremists - of any type - trying to ramrod their backward views into law. Right-wing nuts in America have made it clear that mixing their version of the bible into US law is part of their party platform, making them no better than the religious extremists overseas - the Taliban, ISIS, etc. The only difference is the book used to justify the bigotry - nothing more. Since this is a nation where Christianity is the dominate religion, it's not surprising that the dominate bigots are hiding in that faith, which is why Progressives challenge "Christians" more than any other faith in America.

Progressives also have no use for religious bigots who try to exterminate people of other faiths. They don't like it when Muslims do it Jews, or when Christians do it to Muslims, and so on. But, again - we're talking about America, where the most powerful religion by far is Christianity, which also means the most powerful bigots are "Christians" hiding in that faith. So, when they call for the extermination of Muslims, progressives take them to task on it. But if the situation were reversed and this were a Muslim nation with fake "Muslim" bigots calling for the end of Christians, progressives wouldn't stand for that either.

Long story short, "liberals" have no tolerance for bigots and don't consider religion as an excuse for bigotry. If that means that you think they "hate Christians and love Muslims" than you need to take a better look at the "religious" people involved in that discussion. Because, yes, when a "Christian" leader wants to bomb Muslim refugees into the dirt or turn the Middle East to glass, you're damn right that progressives will call him out for that crap, and it's not because they love one faith and hate the other.

Keep your religion out of my government.

Last edited by Rambler123; 05-19-2017 at 02:57 PM..
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:50 PM
 
4,573 posts, read 2,407,789 times
Reputation: 2526
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catgirl64 View Post
I don't condemn either religion.

I do condemn the actions of certain adherents of both.

I don't think you know enough liberals.
Yes. While I personally despise most organized religion (I think it is one of the worst things to happen to humanity in its history), I don't care if people believe in whatever religion they want to believe in.

Also - the issues I have with religion have to do with when they're used in political ways.

You're welcome to your Bible. Or your Quran. Or you Torah. Just keep them all the hell away from any legislation. Thank you.


The entire OP is a big straw man. No one is arguing what the OP is trying to imply that they are arguing.



If you're wondering why "Christians" seem to get "picked" on more frequently - well, maybe it's because, VERY obviously, Christianity is the more dominant religion in the US. And Christians are, by a large majority, in positions of power in the US.

I believe there are only 2 Muslims actively serving in the US Congress (Keith Ellison and André Carson?)...and I have never read about them trying to impose their religious beliefs into any legislation.

So...again...straw man.
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:54 PM
 
Location: My House
25,416 posts, read 21,165,950 times
Reputation: 19964
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw335xi View Post
It's a completely different level.

A gay couple kissing in public in Saudi Arabia will be jailed or worse. A married woman who is raped could be sentenced to prison in Saudi Arabia. In Indonesia, if a woman joins the military she has to go through the "two finger" test. Look at Muslim countries around the world. Look not only at their laws but the culture. Their culture and laws are based a lot on Islam. It's nothing compared to Alabama, even rural Alabama.
But, I'm talking about US Muslims, not what happens in other countries.

We cannot control the laws of other countries. We can make sure that people living in THIS country are treated fairly.

Because of 9/11, people tend to be more likely to find Muslims "suspect."

That is a problem, so no politician wants to hear that a Muslim was involved in any sort of terror incident or shooting.

Because it causes too much backlash, really.
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:55 PM
 
Location: My House
25,416 posts, read 21,165,950 times
Reputation: 19964
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyMac18 View Post
Yes. While I personally despise most organized religion (I think it is one of the worst things to happen to humanity in its history), I don't care if people believe in whatever religion they want to believe in.

Also - the issues I have with religion have to do with when they're used in political ways.

You're welcome to your Bible. Or your Quran. Or you Torah. Just keep them all the hell away from any legislation. Thank you.


The entire OP is a big straw man. No one is arguing what the OP is trying to imply that they are arguing.



If you're wondering why "Christians" seem to get "picked" on more frequently - well, maybe it's because, VERY obviously, Christianity is the more dominant religion in the US. And Christians are, by a large majority, in positions of power in the US.

I believe there are only 2 Muslims actively serving in the US Congress (Keith Ellison and André Carson?)...and I have never read about them trying to impose their religious beliefs into any legislation.

So...again...straw man.
Agreed.
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:57 PM
 
Location: USA
5,093 posts, read 4,194,681 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bxlover View Post
I agree. What my fellow liberals will do is make an argument against Christians to point out that we aren't perfect. Which is true. Yet, by doing so the falsely equate an orange with a hand grenade. Islamic countries right now routinely deny the most basic civil rights. Christian fundamentalist may dislike gays, may feel gays are demonic, but they seek at worst to thru politics to make life harder for gays but not kill them. Again because Christians face challenge from the press and critical arguments Christian denominations have grown more and more tolerant towards gays. In Islamic countries liberal scrutiny is punishable as un Islamic and that can lead to extreme retaliation.
There is no fundamental difference between the bigotry being promoted by "Christians" here and that being promoted by "Muslims" there. The ONLY reason we don't have gays being stoned to death in this nation "because the bible sayz so!" is because we're thankfully a nation of laws that has it's act together enough (for now) to prevent such crap from happening on any large scale. The religion in question has nothing to do with it.

People seem to forget that what sets America apart is the nation's size and resources, and staggeringly long history of having a stable government of laws with checks and balances, as well as a reasonably robust economy. THOSE are the reasons we haven't degenerated into a bigoted, theocratic hellhole. The world is full of crumbling and failing states of ALL religions; America is just one of the lucky ones that hasn't suffered such a fate, but it's not because of which holy book we prefer. The Bible, as with the Koran, can be easily used to justify all sorts of abominations, and if America collapses, it wouldn't take more than a few generations for that to become the new normal here. It's human nature; religion is a great excuse for hatred and any horrible act, because "my god said so!" and who can disagree with that?
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:04 PM
 
Location: USA
5,093 posts, read 4,194,681 times
Reputation: 9463
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedZin View Post

That is a problem, so no politician wants to hear that a Muslim was involved in any sort of terror incident or shooting.

Because it causes too much backlash, really.
The problem is the constant, intentional need to paint Muslims as terrorists in America, which is obviously part of an agenda. It keeps the far-right under control and easily manipulated by giving them "the other" on which to focus their hatred. They then - stupidly - vote to hurt Muslims while also voting themselves into poverty. Take a look at how it all plays out:

When a Muslim kills some people in America, it is immediately labeled an act of terrorism with an assumed religious motive. If some terrorist group claims responsibility, that has to be announced over the news ASAP, even though rarely are these groups directly responsible unless you count reading their websites. Finally, this is used as an excuse to bomb the Middle East into dirt.

When a non-Muslim in America - probably Christian - kills a bunch of people in just as horrible a way, it's treated as if this is perfectly normal and will never be called terrorism, no matter how many civilians get slaughtered in cold blood. The killer might be labeled a "lone wolf," and no mention is ever made of his religion unless it is so obvious (the guy was screaming religious nonsense while shooting people) that it has to be mentioned. No mention will be made of what crazy, bigoted websites he visited, and nobody will assign blame to the KKK, assorted alt-right news sources, etc, even though they are just as deserving for inspiring these types as ISIS is for inspiring a Muslim shooter. Finally, the story will disappear from the news in a day or two, and nobody will suggest bombing the city in which this happened into the ground.

You have a far higher chance of being killed by a violent, murderous "Christian" in American than by a Muslim. That's not because either faith is horrible or great, but because of sheer statistic. But when Christians do it, it's not terrorism. Funny how that works.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:05 PM
 
8,439 posts, read 7,177,557 times
Reputation: 2199
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw335xi View Post
There is only one public Liberal who actually doesn't sound like a complete hypocrite, Bill Maher. I can respect him, even though I don't agree with him on a lot of issues. At least he is willing to say, all religions are ridiculous hypocritical crap responsible for most wars. He points out that Islam goes completely against the Liberal agenda much more so than Christianity and that Liberals shouldn't ignore the fact that 99% of terrorist acts are in the name of Islam. He probably hates Trump more than any public Liberal, but even he admitted Trump had a point when he tweeted after a terrorist attack that Obama and Democrats seemed more angry at Trump for mentioning the terrorist was a Muslim than the actual terrorist himself.

Bill Maher is pretty much alone on this, so may I ask why is it taboo for Liberals to say anything negative about Islam, when so much about the religion is against equal treatment of women, homosexuals etc?
Um most Liberals I know are Christian -- I don't know what your experience is?!
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:35 PM
 
Location: My House
25,416 posts, read 21,165,950 times
Reputation: 19964
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123 View Post
The problem is the constant, intentional need to paint Muslims as terrorists in America, which is obviously part of an agenda. It keeps the far-right under control and easily manipulated by giving them "the other" on which to focus their hatred. They then - stupidly - vote to hurt Muslims while also voting themselves into poverty. Take a look at how it all plays out:

When a Muslim kills some people in America, it is immediately labeled an act of terrorism with an assumed religious motive. If some terrorist group claims responsibility, that has to be announced over the news ASAP, even though rarely are these groups directly responsible unless you count reading their websites. Finally, this is used as an excuse to bomb the Middle East into dirt.

When a non-Muslim in America - probably Christian - kills a bunch of people in just as horrible a way, it's treated as if this is perfectly normal and will never be called terrorism, no matter how many civilians get slaughtered in cold blood. The killer might be labeled a "lone wolf," and no mention is ever made of his religion unless it is so obvious (the guy was screaming religious nonsense while shooting people) that it has to be mentioned. No mention will be made of what crazy, bigoted websites he visited, and nobody will assign blame to the KKK, assorted alt-right news sources, etc, even though they are just as deserving for inspiring these types as ISIS is for inspiring a Muslim shooter. Finally, the story will disappear from the news in a day or two, and nobody will suggest bombing the city in which this happened into the ground.

You have a far higher chance of being killed by a violent, murderous "Christian" in American than by a Muslim. That's not because either faith is horrible or great, but because of sheer statistic. But when Christians do it, it's not terrorism. Funny how that works.
This is the absolute, statistical truth.

Not that people seem to care about the truth.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Houston
2,826 posts, read 1,677,724 times
Reputation: 1684
Quote:
Originally Posted by bxlover View Post
Exactly. However, the world we live in does have double standards. I am a liberal Democrat. I am also a Christian. Judaism and Christianity enjoy a freedom to question our faiths openly then does Islamic believers do in many parts of the world. So I think it is true what the OP pointed out. Yet, I tell the OP so what if it happens to Christians ? Didn't Jesus tell his believers they would face rejection, ridicule, and persecution ? Doesn't mean that Christians have any right to persecute or mistreat any other group in the meantime.
I know many Christians and they are good people. They are nothing like the blathering idiots you see on TV. We sometimes debate the existence of a deity for fun but we live and let live. So it IS possible to coexist!
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Japan
6,149 posts, read 2,191,485 times
Reputation: 4248
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Because "my enemy's enemy is my friend." Why condemn a religion that is the number one obstacle to the spread of Christianity?
(assuming this is satire)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
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