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ok people, lets just get rid of this "black and white" issue. it really dosent matter if your black or white to be on welfare. There are many whites as there are blacks that constantly abuse the welfare system.
I have extended family that abuse the system we have. They have filed for bankruptsy (dont think I spelled that right), recieved food stamps, and yes are on the welfare system. They have been this way all thier lives and thier kids will probably be the same.
It all comes down to this, black, white, brown, green, purple or red, you are a product of your enviroment. If you live around people who think it's ok to suckle on the teet of the government, then chances are good that you will think the same way. If the people that you are around think it's ok to live in poverty then you will probably not strive to be much better than that. This goes both ways. If you live around ivy leaguers, then you will probably strive to go to an ivy leauge school.
I can see how that when this thread was started blacks were targeted. It's a steriotype that is in some ways true, but in some ways all sterotypes are true and the only way for anybody to squash a steriotype is to not live up to that steriotype. Its like what Truthhurts said, in his family N***erish people are not considered black people. He is doing what he can to kill that steriotype.
Not equipped to argue with you...however, I noticed you left out American Indians, whom, I'm sure you'd classify as "often assumed to be Hispanic..see the 'Hispanic' entry for full details"...but I'm only guessing. Did you leave this group out intentionally?
Not equipped? You perspective is just as relevant as mine. Who is arguing? I just merely gave my perspective as I do here.
No, I didn’t leave native Americans out intentionally and frankly I don’t know where they’d go. I would place the consideration that they are given below that of Hispanics. One of the reasons Hispanics rate higher is because there is strength in numbers and the native American population has tragically been decimated. Incredible tragedy here. I feel that this country owes a great deal to them and I side with them wholeheartedly. I support causes that foster the support for them and recognize that they face incredible battles themselves. Were it up to me, the billions wasted on Iraq would go to rebuilding the lives for all native Americans in this country so they can participate in a Democracy in a DIGNIFIED manner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal
I ALSO find it curious that, as much as whites are cited in your writings for their deleterious effects upon society, strangely, you give 'kudos' to Asians and Indians...exactly the way many WHITES do. Not questioning your judgment, only that I found it noteworthy.
Asians and Indians have very self-sustaining, self-preserving traits, do they not? I mentioned some of these traits that each group is generally perceived to have. They both face racism and discrimination as well, but their way of conducting their lives is to me the only way that black people are going to change this society for the betterment of themselves. Black people are a tremendously powerful and gifted people. Anyone who was born black, been raised around blacks, or who is open-minded enough to embrace black people, knows that. Were blacks suddenly to take on the same self-sustaining, self-preserving traits as the Asians and Indians, making high academic achievement paramount for instance, this society would be transformed, and blacks will find themselves moving up that list I made.
Also, when I speak of whites in a negative fashion, I am only referring to those whites who continue to practice racism and be racially prejudiced. I find them to be a tremendous detriment to the development of this society. No doubt those who are not racist and who are fair-minded and a great benefit to this society feel as I do about these traits as exemplified by Asians and Indians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal
Finally, in your evaluation of blacks as being on the "bottom" of your classifications, I was struck by your reference to "marches, riots, yelling, screaming, and violence", and then, in the same sentence, your reference to "large numbers of educated, brilliant, assimilated blacks". Somehow I found this odd. If indeed there ARE "large numbers" of such worthwhile folks, it seems to discredit the tremendous handicap you say they're suffering from. If, on the other hand, they ARE educated, brilliant, and assimilated, it seems unlikely they achieved that status from "rioting, yelling' violence, screaming" etc. In fact, it seems that MUCH of their success can be attributed to hard work, self-discipline, and so forth...ALMOST the same thing that brought the Asians and Indians THEIR success, which you yourself have expressed so much approval for. Are you suggesting that there are TWO separate groups here, in the black community? If so, what differentiates the "yellers" and "rioters" from the brilliant and successful?
Well, to begin with. I don’t believe that having an abundance of brilliant, educated, assimilated blacks means that racism as it is continually perpetuated on the black race doesn’t exist. What makes the achievement of successful black people so impressive is that they have had to face greater obstacles in their climb. The obstacles and handicap don’t go away because these people found the strength, the resolve, the discipline, the courage to overcome them. In fact, I find the climb of the successful black to be harder than that of Asians and Indians because this climb is not supported by their own culture’s embrace of high academic achievement above all else, it may be accompanied by additional burdens imposed on them by family members who have become casualties of life, they are not given the highest of consideration at every turn, are generally not perceived well, and suitable rewards for such hard work at the end of the journey or not promised, are unknown, or are unpredictable.
About the rioting, yelling, screaming, and violence, these are outwardly, external expressions of frustration, mischief, and worthlessness. They are symbolic only. The real work comes behind the scenes. Staying up till 5am studying or working overtime on a project or going beyond expectations or doing very difficult work for little money in order to get the valuable experience or working to get experience despite being passed over for a promotion that has long been overdue or working on two degrees simultaneously or reading, reading, reading, or getting up at 4:30 am to work out and stay fit in order to keep alert and sharp in the quest to finish some educational path or tackling a difficult subject despite being petrified of its difficulty. There are two types of activities here, one down externally and one done internally and the activities may not be mutually exclusive. I just don’t believe that there are enough of those black people in this country who are working hard and striving for higher, noble goals (Internal activities) to offset the enormous number who aren’t (external activities). In this sense there are two separate groups.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal
Given the fact that nothing happens in a vacuum, and aside from the beneficial results of violence and yelling, do you see any NEGATIVE effects, and is there any way that such behavior, when observed by 'passers by', might have contributed to ANY of the negative image that you feel that blacks suffer from?
Well, I don’t condone violence. I don’t feel that violence contributes to any positive images but the question really is that, when seeing the violence do you attribute that instance to the whole. If you see episodes of violence on TV, do you assume that all blacks are violent? Do you say that black people are violent people because the news media continually shows the gang violence in South Central? Or do you simply say that those people are an ignorant segment of the black population, and ask yourself what caused those problems? When the Muslims hit the Trade Towers on 9/11, people generally had two types of responses. 1) What caused those people to do this or what did we do to them to make them take such desperate, suicidal measures to harm us? Or 2) How can we get those barbaric suckers back because now we have evidence that they hate our way of life? The latter way assumes that they have traits that are the sole reason for their actions. The former way assumes that there are many causes including those of my own doing and perhaps they were responding to them after the pain they felt hit some unbearable threshold.
Black people in inner cities have some serious problems and the causes cannot just be attributed to their own perceived violent, barbaric nature, their own lack of initiative, or their own animalistic tendencies. There are deeper, harmful societal forces at work as well. I choose to consider all factors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal
If Asians or Indians rioted and demonstrated, would outsiders (such as blacks or whites) look upon them MORE favorably than they do, or less?
This is a serious subject, and I'm sincere. These questions are NOT meant to inflame anyone, (though they may well do so)...
How would I know what outsiders would think? I guess the answer to that question depends on the answer to many other questions. How are Asians or Indians perceived in general? Are they perceived positively like they are now or in the most negative manner possible like the black race is in general? Never having a history of rioting or demonstrations, what caused this sudden turn of uncharacteristic behavior? Again too, these are symbolic activities. If they are dominating the law, business, medical, graduate, and college admissions, then these symbolic activities may not have any effect on how they are perceived.
Just my perspective. People can agree or disagree.
Not equipped? You perspective is just as relevant as mine. Who is arguing? I just merely gave my perspective as I do here.
No, I didn’t leave native Americans out intentionally and frankly I don’t know where they’d go. I would place the consideration that they are given below that of Hispanics. One of the reasons Hispanics rate higher is because there is strength in numbers and the native American population has tragically been decimated. Incredible tragedy here. I feel that this country owes a great deal to them and I side with them wholeheartedly. I support causes that foster the support for them and recognize that they face incredible battles themselves. Were it up to me, the billions wasted on Iraq would go to rebuilding the lives for all native Americans in this country so they can participate in a Democracy in a DIGNIFIED manner.
Asians and Indians have very self-sustaining, self-preserving traits, do they not? I mentioned some of these traits that each group is generally perceived to have. They both face racism and discrimination as well, but their way of conducting their lives is to me the only way that black people are going to change this society for the betterment of themselves. Black people are a tremendously powerful and gifted people. Anyone who was born black, been raised around blacks, or who is open-minded enough to embrace black people, knows that. Were blacks suddenly to take on the same self-sustaining, self-preserving traits as the Asians and Indians, making high academic achievement paramount for instance, this society would be transformed, and blacks will find themselves moving up that list I made.
Also, when I speak of whites in a negative fashion, I am only referring to those whites who continue to practice racism and be racially prejudiced. I find them to be a tremendous detriment to the development of this society. No doubt those who are not racist and who are fair-minded and a great benefit to this society feel as I do about these traits as exemplified by Asians and Indians.
Well, to begin with. I don’t believe that having an abundance of brilliant, educated, assimilated blacks means that racism as it is continually perpetuated on the black race doesn’t exist. What makes the achievement of successful black people so impressive is that they have had to face greater obstacles in their climb. The obstacles and handicap don’t go away because these people found the strength, the resolve, the discipline, the courage to overcome them. In fact, I find the climb of the successful black to be harder than that of Asians and Indians because this climb is not supported by their own culture’s embrace of high academic achievement above all else, it may be accompanied by additional burdens imposed on them by family members who have become casualties of life, they are not given the highest of consideration at every turn, are generally not perceived well, and suitable rewards for such hard work at the end of the journey or not promised, are unknown, or are unpredictable.
About the rioting, yelling, screaming, and violence, these are outwardly, external expressions of frustration, mischief, and worthlessness. They are symbolic only. The real work comes behind the scenes. Staying up till 5am studying or working overtime on a project or going beyond expectations or doing very difficult work for little money in order to get the valuable experience or working to get experience despite being passed over for a promotion that has long been overdue or working on two degrees simultaneously or reading, reading, reading, or getting up at 4:30 am to work out and stay fit in order to keep alert and sharp in the quest to finish some educational path or tackling a difficult subject despite being petrified of its difficulty. There are two types of activities here, one down externally and one done internally and the activities may not be mutually exclusive. I just don’t believe that there are enough of those black people in this country who are working hard and striving for higher, noble goals (Internal activities) to offset the enormous number who aren’t (external activities). In this sense there are two separate groups.
Well, I don’t condone violence. I don’t feel that violence contributes to any positive images but the question really is that, when seeing the violence do you attribute that instance to the whole. If you see episodes of violence on TV, do you assume that all blacks are violent? Do you say that black people are violent people because the news media continually shows the gang violence in South Central? Or do you simply say that those people are an ignorant segment of the black population, and ask yourself what caused those problems? When the Muslims hit the Trade Towers on 9/11, people generally had two types of responses. 1) What caused those people to do this or what did we do to them to make them take such desperate, suicidal measures to harm us? Or 2) How can we get those barbaric suckers back because now we have evidence that they hate our way of life? The latter way assumes that they have traits that are the sole reason for their actions. The former way assumes that there are many causes including those of my own doing and perhaps they were responding to them after the pain they felt hit some unbearable threshold.
Black people in inner cities have some serious problems and the causes cannot just be attributed to their own perceived violent, barbaric nature, their own lack of initiative, or their own animalistic tendencies. There are deeper, harmful societal forces at work as well. I choose to consider all factors.
How would I know what outsiders would think? I guess the answer to that question depends on the answer to many other questions. How are Asians or Indians perceived in general? Are they perceived positively like they are now or in the most negative manner possible like the black race is in general? Never having a history of rioting or demonstrations, what caused this sudden turn of uncharacteristic behavior? Again too, these are symbolic activities. If they are dominating the law, business, medical, graduate, and college admissions, then these symbolic activities may not have any effect on how they are perceived.
Just my perspective. People can agree or disagree.
Thanks for your response. There's no doubt that the 'black man' has had a particularly 'bad deal' in America for a VERY long time, and there is no doubt he's been abused from MANY directions. There's also the very understandable frustration of being told "I'll give you something GOOD,if you behave"....then, when the 'recipient' DOES 'behave', yet the promise isn't fulfilled and the 'recipient' eventually becomes angry, the 'donor' THEN says, in effect, "I was JUST GETTING READY to 'give' it to you...but now you're mad, yelling and out of control...so maybe I ought to reconsider".
No one can say blacks in America don't have very legitimate reasons for feeling victimized, for a large part of our history. Yet at the same time, the feeling of victimization runs almost 180 degrees 'counter' to its only viable remedy..which is, living well, and being productive, and making the most of what's available now. Nobody can REALLY have it both ways.
How do blacks get ahead and go out and do it on their own, much as Alexus says of the Asian and Indian communities? They certainly do not benefit from affirmative action but thru placing an emphasis on education have been able to get ahead.
Perhaps if more blacks would focus on education and less on being victims they would achieve similar results as the Asian and Indian communities. I am not an advocate of affirmative action based on race, but do support helping low income populations with grants or govt loans, which are often black or hispanic.
And your assumption that hispanics are just hardworking people is often true of the first generation. A lot of times the 2nd and 3rd generations get more education and go into the professional ranks, though some become lazy and join gangs and the like, especially in impoverished areas. How do you say "they are not perceived as a threat intellectually and quite predictable." It sounds as if you are racist against hispanics. That is not all that different than the "sambo" stereotype of big, strong, but dumb black slave in the south.
In my experience, immigrants as a whole, including many hispanics, tend to be more motivated than existing population and thus succeed more often.
One other observation, why is it that blacks as a whole are better athletes? I know there is a genetic component here. Outside of hockey and soccer and baseball (even some in soccer and baseball), blacks dominate professional basketball and football, with numbers much higher than their percentage of the population. It is isn't just short and long-twitch muscle fibers as the best sprinters and long distance ranks are dominated by people of African descent.
When I go to the gym, it is typically blacks who are lifting the heaviest weights, though every now and then you will see a really strong hispanic, asian, or white guy. Genetically, blacks seem blessed with more strength and speed than other races as a whole.
In my experience, immigrants as a whole, including many hispanics, tend to be more motivated than existing population and thus succeed more often.
Exactly. I see that most feel it's ok to stereotype a race if in their mind it is a positive stereotype. You see immigrants as doctors and lawyers and engineers because most who have come here on H1B or student visas are the cream of the crop. If China or India bordered the US and their citizens had an inexpensive entrance into this country to provide manual labor, people would be quick to stereotype them as they have Mexicans.
Go visit San Antonio, TX and tell me that hispanics are your hard working manual laborers... they're not... they're just like every other American, as individuals they are doctors, lawyers, teachers, engineers, businessmen, landscapers, and construction workers.
Threads like this are extremely frustrating... and they're mostly started by the same person, who just wants to incite hate and walk away without contributing to the thread.
I am not looking to incite racism, just share my experiences and learn from others.
I agree that immigrants tend to be the cream of the crop. The further from the US, the better the crop as you have to come here with some means to board a 747 vs. walking across.
If India or China were next door, I am sure we would get their working class people as well. But as they are not, we get mostly engineers and doctors who have the means to buy a plane ticket here.
My apologies.. I thought I was on another thread created by another user who has started many of these and just steps back to watch the hate. My mistake!
Actually humbolt you are mistaken regarding the strength superiority of black bodybuilders/weightlifters. They do NOT dominate in strength events as they do in speed/agility events. Most powerlifting and weightlifting records are held by whites and to a lessor extent asians...by far. The World's Strongest Man competition has never been seriously challenged by a black individual, despite several entries. I myself am a lifetime bodybuilder/powerlifter and have often observed that that blacks, despite excellent visible muscularity, are typically rather weak when compared to similarly muscled white and asian lifters. There are exceptions, of course, but black lifters generally are not particularly gifted in the strength department. Setting aside the issue of the preponderance of fast or slow twitch muscle fibers there is the issue of leverage; blacks tend to be long legged/long armed, with short torso's and these traits work against the expression of power/strength (except in ONE movement: the deadlift where a short torso and long arms is an advantage). Asians, pound for pound, are perhaps best suited for strength events; having far superior strength endowing leverage factors than blacks and even many whites. They possess long, broad torso's and short, thick limbs: perfect for developing strength and delivering power. Long, tall basketballplayers, in contrast, are very weak in proportion to their size. I've personally worked out in a gym where several of the Lakers were pounding the iron and I was not impressed) Shorter, stockier asian athletes are far stronger in proportion to weight. So to burst your bubble about the general superiority of black athletes but it just aint so bro.
Last edited by dracul; 04-16-2008 at 04:43 PM..
Reason: strength is not equal to speed agility
In advance some may consider this a dangerous topic, but a worthy nonetheless I feel. I have my opinions of why certain races get ahead more easily than others, many because of poverty and lack of education in Chicago and let' stick to Chicago for this forum as I know this issue is endemic to most major metro areas.
Povery is certainly a major cause but there are also cultural reasons driving this as the Mexicans and Central Americans in the city come here with little and not even English but most work hard and in a few years get ahead or see their children get ahead. To be fair, this is true of many immigrants, including Haitians, dominicans, and Africans so it is not so much a race issue as it is a culture issue.
Many American blacks have been raised in an entitlement culture. Many blacks, like those I work with have gotten beyond this and gone out and gotten good educations and jobs and all the trappings that come with affluence. For many however, there seems to be little hope and there is what appears to be an endless cycle of poverty.
My father, the cattle farmer put it simply, "they are at the bottom" when referring to poor blacks on the west side. And just to avoid you calling my dad ignorant he has bachelor and masters in agriculture and spent 2 years in Vietnam and was twice awarded a purple heart. My mother worked as a sociologist in the 60s and 70s in Gary before teaching special needs children in middle school before the days of ritalin.
So, what do we do to stop this cycle of poverty. Frankly, I am tired of my tax dollars being applied toward programs that don't work (and please don"t attack my family over farm subsidies we are the same page regarding ethanol as it has hurt my father as a cattle farmer, driving up his price of feed).
What can be done to avoid another generation of entitlement?
If in this post you really were interested in discussing how to avoid another generation of entitlement, you could have just asked after information on entitlement programs and how people are or are not working their ways out of the entitlement swamp.
You also could have looked around online at some fed, state and local .gov sites, news sites and stat sites to research. If you wanted to find out how much of your personal tax dollar goes to which entitlement programs where, you could have found that out too.
Race needn't have had a blessed thing to do with it, or with your thread's title.
One other observation, why is it that blacks as a whole are better athletes? I know there is a genetic component here. Outside of hockey and soccer and baseball (even some in soccer and baseball), blacks dominate professional basketball and football, with numbers much higher than their percentage of the population. It is isn't just short and long-twitch muscle fibers as the best sprinters and long distance ranks are dominated by people of African descent.
When I go to the gym, it is typically blacks who are lifting the heaviest weights, though every now and then you will see a really strong hispanic, asian, or white guy. Genetically, blacks seem blessed with more strength and speed than other races as a whole.
Obviously you aren't going to the gym with eastern European and Asians. They are dominating powerlifting these days. Also what about yacht racing, polo, auto racing, squash and three-day eventing and sporting clays? I guess us white guys need something we can be good at!
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Black Entitlement
