Honestly, do you think the middle east will ever improve? (Iran, Taliban)
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That entire area is the armpit of the world. They have been fighting the same wars, in one form or another, for a thousand years, and there is no end in sight. As long as they kept their battles over there , it was ok, but then they had to start attacking us and every other civilized country on the planet.
They are simply people who are mired in the past, with outdated beliefs, and a religion that some of them distort to mean violence is good.
I think something really bad must happen first. They aren't going to give up Islam and the desire for a Caliphate without a hell of a fight, and you can't really have a prosperous , thriving nation whilst living under seventh century law and custom.
If oil prices go down further and stay there there's a fighting chance. Being a caliph over a barren desert is not fun.
No matter how supine the West is the Middle East powers cannot expand militarily into the West. Even the Muslim migrants can't spread much since eventually European people, as opposed to governments, will turn violent. I could see them going down if the rulers or caliph-pretenders can't get rich off of oil.
By improve I mean turn into primarily what America and Europe has in terms of secularisation, freedom, women's rights etc.? Countries such as Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and counties like that. Do you think they'll ever truly progress, throw Islam, Mohammed and Allah in the dustbin of history and evolve past the 7th century?
Nope. Not until the US and England get out of the ME. They CAUSE problems to have something to "fix".
By improve I mean turn into primarily what America and Europe has in terms of secularisation, freedom, women's rights etc.? Countries such as Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and counties like that. Do you think they'll ever truly progress, throw Islam, Mohammed and Allah in the dustbin of history and evolve past the 7th century?
Will they "throw Islam, Mohammed and Allah into the dust bin of history" - of course not, and why should any group of people give up their Religion to satisfy those who don't practice that Religion.
Do I think they will ever progress? - I do think so based on what has happened in the last decade. King Salman of Saudi Arabia will soon make an announcement that Women can choose their Education and employment, and don't need a Male Guardian to "approve". I think within the next decade that women will be allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia - they are already being elected to office, commissions, shura councils (probably still with Male guardian approval) and it does allow them to express their wishes publicly. The population of Saudi Arabia is 70% under the age of 30 - that's a massive amount of young people. Many of them educated outside of Saudi Arabia, that doesn't mean that they wish to give up their Religion, but it does mean they no longer accept the "7th Century" edicts of that Religion.
The new Terrorism Center (to track financing) that was just dedicated in KSA will help flush out Extremists - this is a major step for King Salman because it imposes a severe punishment of those who finance ISIS, al-Qaeda and other Extremist groups around the world. He does this while fully aware that members of the Royal Family (which is estimated to be in the 20,000 range) are involved in that financing.
"Freedom" means different things in different cultures, the USA, Asian Nations, European Nations or anyone else does not have the right to tell other cultures how to live. The best we can hope for is advancing freedom, not by force or even lecturing - but through cooperation.
A key to that is to start at the top and not at the bottom - as The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and Egypt (the 2 leading Arab Nations) go ..... so will the others follow. I see some progress, it's incremental but a foundation is being laid.
Nope. Not until the US and England get out of the ME. They CAUSE problems to have something to "fix".
Do you think the Jews need to leave the ME? Will the Muslims leave Europe and the US? Why do only Muslims have the right to a monoculture region taking up a good chunk of the world?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibby
Will they "throw Islam, Mohammed and Allah into the dust bin of history" - of course not, and why should any group of people give up their Religion to satisfy those who don't practice that Religion.
According to former Muslims it really isn't a religion.
[quote=Kibby;48316856] Do I think they will ever progress? - I do think so based on what has happened in the last decade. King Salman of Saudi Arabia will soon make an announcement that Women can choose their Education and employment, and don't need a Male Guardian to "approve". I think within the next decade that women will be allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia - they are already being elected to office, commissions, shura councils (probably still with Male guardian approval) and it does allow them to express their wishes publicly. The population of Saudi Arabia is 70% under the age of 30 - that's a massive amount of young people. Many of them educated outside of Saudi Arabia, that doesn't mean that they wish to give up their Religion, but it does mean they no longer accept the "7th Century" edicts of that Religion. [/qutoe]Do his announcements have any impact beyond their printing in Western media?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibby
The new Terrorism Center (to track financing) that was just dedicated in KSA will help flush out Extremists - this is a major step for King Salman because it imposes a severe punishment of those who finance ISIS, al-Qaeda and other Extremist groups around the world. He does this while fully aware that members of the Royal Family (which is estimated to be in the 20,000 range) are involved in that financing.
What that means is that King Salman is worried about his own fiscal health as oil prices hold at low levels. If you're paying $2.599 for gasoline they are in serious trouble.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibby
"Freedom" means different things in different cultures, the USA, Asian Nations, European Nations or anyone else does not have the right to tell other cultures how to live. The best we can hope for is advancing freedom, not by force or even lecturing - but through cooperation.
I thought people have rights too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibby
A key to that is to start at the top and not at the bottom - as The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and Egypt (the 2 leading Arab Nations) go ..... so will the others follow. I see some progress, it's incremental but a foundation is being laid.
I would love to agree but in those countries the leaders' writ doesn't run very far.
Not unless they run out of oil or we find an alternative & stop buying their product. Then they will be forced to find other ways of survival & start training their kids to learn new skills from progressive countries. To get along with the liberal world, they will have to become tolerant & give up their ideologies as they dont fit in with other countries. But as long as we are dependent on their oil, they will make their own rules & refuse to progress with us.
By improve I mean turn into primarily what America and Europe has in terms of secularisation, freedom, women's rights etc.? Countries such as Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and counties like that. Do you think they'll ever truly progress, throw Islam, Mohammed and Allah in the dustbin of history and evolve past the 7th century?
We of course need to add that the much of European history from the fall of Rome was also a fight over
"my religious beliefs are better than yours". In reality it was not about religion it was about power and wealth.
funny how that plays out so often in history.
Fortunately we have thrown parts of the "Abrahamic" cult out-- still more to go.
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