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Old 05-31-2017, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
5,671 posts, read 4,335,954 times
Reputation: 2610

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Quote:
Originally Posted by latimeria View Post
If someone is opposed to an abortion for beliefs that it is taking a life, this is an acceptable "out" for them. Plus, there are people who would love to adopt for various reasons, but can't afford the high initial fees, esp. with multiple kids.
No it's not. It's intellectual laziness to be opposed to abortion just because it's taking a life. We take the lives of simple organisms to assist ourselves all the time.
Even from the pain aspect and health hazards, if you get the abortion early enough, I have no idea why anyone would want to go through that much health risk and discomfort for a being before, say, a little over an inch long by week 10 of pregnancy:

Though he's barely the size of a kumquat – a little over an inch or so long, crown to bottom – and weighs less than a quarter of an ounce, your baby has now completed the most critical portion of his development. This is the beginning of the so-called fetal period, a time when the tissues and organs in his body rapidly grow and mature.
https://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pr...-weeks_1099.bc
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Old 05-31-2017, 09:23 PM
 
1,065 posts, read 593,645 times
Reputation: 1461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
I don't see adoption as superior to abortion, necessarily. You're still dumping a kid onto society and sending the mother through a great deal of person anguish. All that could be avoided.

89-92% of all abortions happen during the first trimester, prior to the 13th week of gestation (AGI/CDC).
Facts About Abortion: U.S. Abortion Statistics

Your baby is now the length of a pea pod, about 7.4cm (2.9in) from head to bottom (crown to rump). He weighs nearly 23g (0.8oz). His head makes up a third of his body length. This week, the part of his brain responsible for complex thoughts, such as problem-solving and memory, starts to form.
https://www.babycentre.co.uk/13-week...#ixzz4ii2czoVZ

Just get an abortion before that 13 week mark.
Adoption is for children who need homes. Incubating a potential human for someone else is not what adoption is about - that is a subtle form of human trafficking, far worse than any first trimester abortion. This human trafficking is already being experienced by some families who walk into adoption agencies. For example, open-adoptions are a marketing ploy told to pregnant women, for which open-adoptions are not enforceable. Adoption has never been and never will be a reason for an unintended pregnancy.
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Old 05-31-2017, 10:36 PM
 
5,311 posts, read 2,099,450 times
Reputation: 2570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
No it's not. It's intellectual laziness to be opposed to abortion just because it's taking a life. We take the lives of simple organisms to assist ourselves all the time.
Even from the pain aspect and health hazards, if you get the abortion early enough, I have no idea why anyone would want to go through that much health risk and discomfort for a being before, say, a little over an inch long by week 10 of pregnancy:

Though he's barely the size of a kumquat – a little over an inch or so long, crown to bottom – and weighs less than a quarter of an ounce, your baby has now completed the most critical portion of his development. This is the beginning of the so-called fetal period, a time when the tissues and organs in his body rapidly grow and mature.
https://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pr...-weeks_1099.bc
*Shrug* your opinion as to it being intellectual laziness. People feel very strongly about a wide variety of things that you may or may not personally agree with, that may or may not make sense to you and it doesn't automatically mean they are being "intellectually lazy". If they are that strongly in favor of it being a person, and if they are willing to go through with all the pain, etc, it's their body. Isn't that just another facet of the pro-choice idea?

I would hope that they are also using birth control if they are sexually active, waiting until a committed relationship at the very least (I waited til' marriage), etc. if they hold this opinion and not get into a situation where it's needed (as possible, considering rape, severe risk to mother's life beyond the usual, etc).

I can't really stomach the thought of an abortion, myself. It is a baby from the very start, to me. There are very few circumstances where I would even consider it. I also don't tell people to get them or anything. I now consider myself mildly pro-choice, though, since I recognize that they are going to happen no matter what and trying to just ban them makes for even more problems.

As for human trafficking re: adoption as an alternative to abortion...sigh. This whole situation isn't easy, is it? What about rape victims who are anti-abortion?
Maybe there is really a way to fix the system more so it's more tenable as an alternative.
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Old 05-31-2017, 10:54 PM
 
10,181 posts, read 10,225,354 times
Reputation: 9252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
The federal government contracts with thousands of private organizations like Planned Parenthood. You're saying the federal government should no longer do this?
PP has had decades to figure out how to better handle it all. It has failed to do so & miserably.

If only 3% of all Planned Parenthood services are abortions? Let the independent abortion "women's health" clinics do the abortions. They take insurance or will put one on a payment plan, take a CC/money order just like PP will for the abortions they do. Sliding scale.

PP is willing to send "thousands" of their patients to the "wolves" or worse? Screw the other 97%?

It's not as if fed/state tax payers fund those abortions, right? So why is PP knocking it's head against a brick wall if they are all about "women's health"?

Just like PP doesn't provide mammograms, rather gives referrals to... PP can refer one to an abortion clinic. For profit abortion clinic/doctor. That takes the same form of payments that PP does, when one is going for an abortion.

You'd think if PP was all about women's health care and family planning and STD testing, etc., they'd have caved a long time ago and put women's healthcare (the 97% of what "they do") ahead of the 3%.
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Old 06-01-2017, 01:55 AM
 
79,907 posts, read 44,013,817 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirikanel View Post
Just another blow by the patriarchy. Can we PLEASE move to a matriarchy ASAP so we can finally have peace, friendship, fairness and equality in the world?
There are millions of women that are pro-life. If you ever go to a pro-life rally the overwhelming vast majority of people there are women.
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Old 06-01-2017, 02:31 AM
 
9,006 posts, read 13,792,518 times
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I do not want to see one person who is for the closing of Planned Parenthhod complaining about food stamps and Welfare then.
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Old 06-01-2017, 03:54 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
5,671 posts, read 4,335,954 times
Reputation: 2610
Quote:
Originally Posted by latimeria View Post
*Shrug* your opinion as to it being intellectual laziness. People feel very strongly about a wide variety of things that you may or may not personally agree with, that may or may not make sense to you and it doesn't automatically mean they are being "intellectually lazy". If they are that strongly in favor of it being a person, and if they are willing to go through with all the pain, etc, it's their body. Isn't that just another facet of the pro-choice idea?
I don't base my decisions of what I see as right and wrong based on feelings. I try to base those decisions off reasoning, at least when I'm deciding how I think others should behave. Sometimes I'm wrong, but I figure making the attempt is about a thousand times better than just going off what I feel.

Quote:
I would hope that they are also using birth control if they are sexually active, waiting until a committed relationship at the very least (I waited til' marriage), etc. if they hold this opinion and not get into a situation where it's needed (as possible, considering rape, severe risk to mother's life beyond the usual, etc).
I don't date or have sex so I probably should not comment on that, because that's a world I don't really understand. I've heard old men say that they regretted not being more promiscuous while younger, outside of marriage. I figure they know themselves better than I do. I think it would better to advise young people to use contraception than practice an abstinence only policy, because from what I understand encouraging the use of contraception works better to reduce teen pregnancies than abstinence only policies. I would hope people are using birth control if they don't want a pregnancy too. However, I don't think I'd want the type of people who don't use birth control and yet expect it not to result in a pregnancy to become parents anyway.

Quote:
I can't really stomach the thought of an abortion, myself. It is a baby from the very start, to me. There are very few circumstances where I would even consider it. I also don't tell people to get them or anything. I now consider myself mildly pro-choice, though, since I recognize that they are going to happen no matter what and trying to just ban them makes for even more problems.

As for human trafficking re: adoption as an alternative to abortion...sigh. This whole situation isn't easy, is it? What about rape victims who are anti-abortion?
Maybe there is really a way to fix the system more so it's more tenable as an alternative.
The first trimester lasts from week 1-12 of pregnancy, evidently. That person said that getting an abortion anytime in the first trimester is better than carrying the developing embryo to pregnancy and giving it up for adoption. I think I agree with that. I just want it to be legal to carry children to birth just to give them up for adoption. I feel like people who want to carry the developing embryo to birth just to give it up for adoption might not be thinking enough about their child, and they might not be taking responsibility for a life they've created. They've created a living being that could grow up without parents that never needed to exist beyond a very primitive stage.

It all becomes more controversial the further into the pregnancy a person gets, of course.

I doubt there is a way to fix the system. I think abortions will be necessary for a long, long time, unless we can get some kind of fantasy/science fiction transhumanist future or something. I think we just have to live with it.

Last edited by Clintone; 06-01-2017 at 04:16 AM..
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Old 06-01-2017, 04:10 AM
 
5,311 posts, read 2,099,450 times
Reputation: 2570
I meant the adoption system with that comment. I think abstinence is ideal until you are in a situation where you are at least committed to the person you might end up having a kid with, planned or not.I also know people have oops, don't wanna wait, etc, so hoped they did birth control too. Adoption would only be part of the solution, not nearly anywhere near THE solution to reducing abortions.

I don't think we should force or ridicule anyone who is anti abortion to think they should logically (according to one subset of beliefs and not some universal truth) be more open to having one, as long as it's pertaining to themselves and not trying to take it away from everyone. Goes along with pro choice. Saying everyone should be ok with having an abortion is just a dangerous flip side to no one should have one.

As I have mentioned, I don't think they will go away if somehow outlawed and believe more focus should be put towards education, birth control and adoption.
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Old 06-01-2017, 04:31 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
5,671 posts, read 4,335,954 times
Reputation: 2610
Quote:
Originally Posted by latimeria View Post
I meant the adoption system with that comment. I think abstinence is ideal until you are in a situation where you are at least committed to the person you might end up having a kid with, planned or not.I also know people have oops, don't wanna wait, etc, so hoped they did birth control too. Adoption would only be part of the solution, not nearly anywhere near THE solution to reducing abortions.

I don't think we should force or ridicule anyone who is anti abortion to think they should logically (according to one subset of beliefs and not some universal truth) be more open to having one, as long as it's pertaining to themselves and not trying to take it away from everyone. Goes along with pro choice. Saying everyone should be ok with having an abortion is just a dangerous flip side to no one should have one.
Why? There are certain times when getting an abortion will result in no harm to anyone. If a person gives birth to a child to give it up for adoption, there's a good chance that's going to result in harm to someone because of the risk of a child growing up without parents or causing another child to grow up without parents, and there's the mother's health to consider as well.

I don't think we should ridicule people for giving birth to children just to give them up for adoption. If they had the option of terminating the pregnancy in the early stages but chose to give birth to the child instead, I just think they could be in the wrong depending on how early we're talking about.

I'm pro choice in that I want people to be legally allowed to get pregnant and realize it 8 days after intercourse and choose to give birth to the baby and give it up for adoption. That doesn't mean I like it though.


Quote:
As I have mentioned, I don't think they will go away if somehow outlawed and believe more focus should be put towards education, birth control and adoption.

Last edited by Clintone; 06-01-2017 at 04:50 AM..
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Old 06-01-2017, 04:53 AM
 
5,311 posts, read 2,099,450 times
Reputation: 2570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
Why? There are certain times when getting an abortion will result in no harm to anyone. If a person gives birth to a child to give it up for adoption, there's a good chance that's going to result in harm to someone because of the risk of a child growing up without parents or causing another child to grow up without parents, and there's the mother's health to consider as well.

I don't think we should ridicule people for giving birth to children just to give them up for adoption. At least if they had the option of terminating the pregnancy in the early stages but chose to give birth to the child instead though, I just think they were in the wrong.

I'm pro choice in that I want people to legally allowed to get pregnant and realize it 8 days after intercourse and choose to give birth to the baby and give it up for adoption. That doesn't mean I like it though.
Saying everyone should be ok with it removes their choice of what they do with their body and tells them what they should believe. No better than fervent prolifers saying no one should have any because they think it's wrong.

If a person chooses it for themselves, well, I don't like it as a concept, but not my life. If a person chooses to be against the idea, for their own body and life, let them have the same option to NOT have to have one as long as they're not trying to say no one can.

Life is full of risks and harm to people in general. Psychological harm from having an abortion if you believe it's wrong may happen. I mourned when my first baby was a miscarriage, even though you would oh so helpfully try to point out it was only a poppyseed or something. It was a baby to me. I would really struggle with having an abortion, even if somehow "for the best" like if I was raped. Not sure if I could do it.

Life is not so black and white where we can all agree upon the worth of a baby/fetus/whatever your (general) belief that it is. I am not going to waver on this point for my own body (babies start at conception and there are very few reasons I would even consider an abortion). I do live my life accordingly and do not put myself into situations where I would need one.
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