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Old 06-07-2017, 05:04 PM
 
4,491 posts, read 1,669,324 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo58 View Post
A misdemeanor is a crime, so the wording is redundant. No definition for "high" crimes. The key point is that the President can't be impeached for being incompetent, or a jackass (unfortunately); he has to actually commit a crime. Like any criminal, I suppose he has to be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Actually, high crimes does not mean crime in the same sense as misdemeanor. It's a rather archaic term that was commonly understood in the 17th and 18th century. There's definitely debate as to what constitutes as a high crime. I've heard it described as a breach of public trust or some kind of disorderly conduct.

A good example; if Donald Trump was constantly showing up to meetings drunk, they'd probably want to impeach him. That's not necessarily illegal to do. I mean, he gets driven around so it's fine. But... it's unbecoming of a president and could effect his job.
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Old 06-07-2017, 06:28 PM
 
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The best scenario is for his Presidency to be made void, by reasons of treasonous collaborations with a Foreign enemy, and seeking to use his Administration to effect such acts, and then engaging to try and cover it up and impede the investigation of such disclosures.

This could then be a situation of collateral recall of all acts and appointments by Trump, as his presidency will be declared Illegitimate and an attack on the Democratic Sovereignty of the United States.

Would it be Unprecedented. Yes, but we need to deal with such unprecedented actions in the light of the current situation and the damages being done to the United States.

People must remember, Our Duty is to Fight against Enemies to the Democracy of the United States, where they be; internal or foreign.

We need not play the spin the bottle game of partisan madness, we need to address the acts of treason, which has demonstrated itself in the acts that have caused rifts with our European Allies, which has been an ideal desired by the very same Russians, that Trump Administration has far too many links and associations, be it espionage against our Democratic Process of Presidential Elections, as well as Trumps acts that have aligned with Putin's Objects as a Threat engaged against our Democracy and its Allies. This extends further to the conduct Trump engaged with regards to the Middle East.

We cannot overlook Trump firing off missiles into Syria as a means to delude the Public focus from the great importance of filling our Supreme Court.

Our Political system has tried to avert such unprecedented action, but, we are at a point, that we risk our Democracy, or we take the hard stand to stand up for Democracy and disavow this Administration and Invalidate the President as an illegitimate ascension to occupy the office of the Presidency.

America is at the cross roads, and it must make the choice or choose its own downfall.

All information available within our intelligence agencies and our FBI must comes forth for to do what it was designed to do, and that is 'Protect this Democracy". disclosure is mandated!!! by the premise of the offices creations and purpose. No Man and No Administration nor member of Administration including the Executive is greater than our Democracy as the United States.

No Man can stand in position of blockage of this valuable information, One gives up the rights of such privacy when they enter the arena of our highest office on a basis of Ethics that support the entrusting of such high office. and this United States has every right as a Sovereign Democratic Nation to disclose the details of any man who is in the Office of the Presidency's financial dealing, his ties and the details of his historical financial background. No claim or pretense or claim or stand of claim of Executive Privilege can be used to place any man above the law. There is no Diplomatic Immunity for A United States President.

Excerpts From: Article II - U.S. Constitution

Quote:
In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the Same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by Law provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected - See more at:
Quote:
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.
He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.
The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session.
- See more at:

Section 4.
The President, Vice President and all Civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

The Special Council must proceed to do its diligence in works.

Quote:
Upon a determination by the Attorney General that reasonable grounds exist for investigation or prosecution of certain high ranking government officials, he must notify a special, Article III court which appoints a special counsel. The counsel is assured full power and independent authority to investigate and, if warranted, to prosecute. Such counsel may be removed from office by the Attorney General only for cause as prescribed in the statute.
- See more at:

When it comes to obstruction, "The President cannot pardon by anticipation, otherwise he would be invested with the power to dispense with the laws"

His seeking for the FBI to drop its investigation in to Flynn, is "Obstruction" as in aim to dispense with the law.
His seeking to divert the Justice Department from investigating the Russian Involvement, is "Obstruction" as an aim to dispense with the law.

These are Impeachable Offenses, the details in the discovery and presentation of our Intelligence Agencies and our FBI, is of collusive acts in aiding and comforting a known enemy of the State, is acts of Treason. We must acknowledge the existing war being fought within and through the "information technology" as acts against the sovereignty of the Democracy of these United States.

Pre- Election Activity by the Trump organization is acts against the sovereignty of the United States, in that it effects the authority of a state to govern itself.

These are grounds for not only Impeachment, but charges of Treasonous acts against the authority of our nation to govern itself.

Concealment of Treason
Under section 40 of the Criminal Code
, any person who;
(a)
becomes an
accessory after the fact
to treason or
(b)
knowing that any person intends to commit treason, does not give information thereof with all reasonable dispatch to the President or Governor of the state or a Peace Officer, or use other reasonable endeavours to prevent the commission of the offence, is guilty of a felony and is liable to imprisonment for life


What is: Offense of Treasonable Felony:

"An act that shows an intention of committing treason, unaccompanied by any further act to carry out that intention. This offense results in life imprisonment rather than the death penalty"


treason felony. : an offense under the nature of treason (as devising by overt act to depose or levy war against the sovereign to compel changes of policy or to intimidate or effect our Political process). this should mandate life in imprisonment.

Trump's presidency should be Declared Illegitimate and charged him and his administration with Concealment of Treason as an attack on the Democratic Sovereignty of the United States.


As a nation, we have moved against other nations to change the Administration for cause, we must be willing to do the same in our own nation for cause. We have cause!!!

Last edited by Chance and Change; 06-07-2017 at 06:49 PM..
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:22 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
1,138 posts, read 456,936 times
Reputation: 1114
The bottom line after reading all the laws under the Constitution is Trump can get impeached for being a dangerous idiot.
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:25 PM
 
203 posts, read 205,271 times
Reputation: 471
Sir Chance and Change excuse my lack of depth presenting the following -- I had to ask permission to quickly respond to You and was given it after explaining what I intended to say.

To be straight to the point... wouldn't Ryan and McConnell have to agree to going forward for one thing ( which is not going to happen because it would destroy Republican legislative agenda... ) It needed a Republican President to support their priorities: that is slashing health care, cutting social programs and taxes through new legislation. This would be political suicide for either man.

I have other points to bring forth but must quickly find articles to further my point Sir since we have to be off the computer at a certain time in my home.

Thank You for Your patience in my regards...

ETA:
The Comey scandal won't end Trump's presidency unless Republicans agree it should

May 16, 2017, 6:34pm EDT
https://www.vox.com/2017/5/15/156448...end-presidency

Impeachment would wreck Republicans’ legislative agenda

Quote:
the only thing that will bring him down is Ryan and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell agreeing that he must be removed from office, and rallying their members to vote for impeachment and removal....

Impeachment proceedings are long and ugly and almost completely consume Congress’s time and energy. They take up months that Republicans desperately need to pass health care and tax legislation before the 2018 midterms, which could see them lose control of the House.
Quote:
If you take the cause of cutting social programs and taxes as seriously as Ryan does, then why the hell would you ever choose the route of impeachment? He’d be left with very little time to enjoy the relative predictability and lower scandal output of President Mike Pence before the midterms put his House majority in danger. And if the 1974 midterms are any indication, having your party’s president leave under dint of scandal is a great way to lose an enormous number of seats in the House and Senate. After that, Ryan’s dream is dead.

The much easier path for Ryan and McConnell is to continually minimize Trump’s wrongdoing and decline to investigate seriously, let alone look into removal.
Quote:
For Trump to fall, for a scandal to end his presidency, what’s needed isn’t a new, massive scandal. What’s needed is for Ryan and McConnell to decide that investigating and prosecuting Trump is important, and the right thing to do.
The following is opinion which I agree...

Why Donald Trump Will Not Be Impeached

3:45 pm, February 8th, 2017
http://lawnewz.com/opinion/why-donal...-be-impeached/

to assist the younger reading audience...

Quote:
What is Impeachment?

Impeachment involves bringing of charges of misconduct against a public official. To impeach the President, he would need to be accused of “high crimes and misdemeanors.” Each charge is called an “Article of Impeachment.” Impeachment of the President does not ensure conviction, and removal from office. With a majority vote in the House of Representatives, an article or articles is then brought to trial in the Senate. The Senate needs to approve conviction, and therefore removal, by a two-thirds margin (67 out of 100).
Quote:
As things stand currently, securing enough Republicans to pass the charges threshold in the House would be hard, let alone getting enough votes in the Senate to help get to a two-thirds majority (which would require some 20 Republicans to join with all of the Democrats).
Quote:
Political Impossibility

With the above in mind, any Republican that sought to bring articles of impeachment against the President would be committing political suicide, no matter how justified they may feel. There are many people, including Republicans, that do not approve of aspects of Mr. Trump’s activity, but that does not translate to support for impeachment. More, a Democrat who sought to impeach the president with support only along party lines would be seen as just making a political point, and nothing more.
Quote:
There are a couple of necessary preconditions for impeachment to take place. First of all, there must be conduct that is reprehensible enough to draw bi-partisan disgust and disappointment; second, there must be a groundswell of public support that emboldens leaders to actually advocate for and bring impeachment charges.
Sorry that this is the limited depth of challenge I can present at this time. I abhor partisan snark and think myself above such in spite of being a teen. One should strive to meet the intellectual challenge of ideas if they are capable of such though and presentation. Thank You for a well written commentary.

Last edited by Something Needs To Change; 06-07-2017 at 08:16 PM..
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:27 PM
 
6,438 posts, read 3,066,921 times
Reputation: 5853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd View Post
well, its instructive that democrats tell us what impeachment should be about because it is clear felonious behavior is not on the democrat list of reasons to remove from office.


for instance perjury is not a high crime or misdemeanor
Hmmm..........wasn't a democratic president impeached for perjury?
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:29 PM
 
6,438 posts, read 3,066,921 times
Reputation: 5853
The interesting thing is that the current President has committed no crimes or misdemeanors and the previous FBI director himself says the president was not even under investigation and yet people are talking about impeaching him. Why?
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Lone Mountain Las Vegas NV
12,804 posts, read 4,837,023 times
Reputation: 5684
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondy View Post
The interesting thing is that the current President has committed no crimes or misdemeanors and the previous FBI director himself says the president was not even under investigation and yet people are talking about impeaching him. Why?
That is true but misleading. The President has committed any number of high crimes and misdemeanors if the House says he has and the Senate agrees.

There is no formal required definition of a high crime and misdemeanor. So effectively every President serves at the pleasure of half the house and two thirds of the Senate.

And if they say he is guilty...he is guilty. There is no review process.
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:39 PM
 
29,386 posts, read 15,419,056 times
Reputation: 19970
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpinionExperience View Post
The bottom line after reading all the laws under the Constitution is Trump can get impeached for being a dangerous idiot.
I have an idea, if at least 5 million people file a petition saying a POTUS is a "dangerous idiot" we impeach that POTUS.

I think we could probably get through around 8 every four years. We can turn it into a contest to see which party can do it the fastest. I'm thinking the petition could probably get down to about three days.
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Old 06-07-2017, 09:06 PM
 
26,304 posts, read 12,835,545 times
Reputation: 12550
Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
I have an idea, if at least 5 million people file a petition saying a POTUS is a "dangerous idiot" we impeach that POTUS.

I think we could probably get through around 8 every four years. We can turn it into a contest to see which party can do it the fastest. I'm thinking the petition could probably get down to about three days.
Honestly I would think that was hilarious. But I wouldn't have signed it for any past president in my lifetime.
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Old 06-07-2017, 09:13 PM
 
5,227 posts, read 2,312,952 times
Reputation: 3667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Something Needs To Change View Post
Sir Chance and Change excuse my lack of depth presenting the following -- I had to ask permission to quickly respond to You and was given it after explaining what I intended to say.

To be straight to the point... wouldn't Ryan and McConnell have to agree to going forward for one thing ( which is not going to happen because it would destroy Republican legislative agenda... They needed a Republican President to sign their priorities, in particular slashing health care and other social programs and cutting taxes, into law. This would be political suicide for either man.

I have other points to bring forth but must quickly find articles to further my point Sir since we have to be off the computer at a certain time in my home.

Thank You for Your patience in my regards...

ETA:
The Comey scandal won't end Trump's presidency unless Republicans agree it should

May 16, 2017, 6:34pm EDT
https://www.vox.com/2017/5/15/156448...end-presidency

Impeachment would wreck Republicans’ legislative agenda

The following is opinion which I agree...

Why Donald Trump Will Not Be Impeached

3:45 pm, February 8th, 2017
Why Donald Trump Will Not Be Impeached | Law News

to assist the younger reading audience...

Sorry that this is the limited depth of challenge I can present at this time. I abhor partisan snark and think myself above such in spite of being a teen. One should strive to meet the intellectual challenge of ideas if they are capable of such though and presentation. Thank You for a well written commentary.

Annotation 4 - Article II

Clause 6. Presidential Succession
When the President is disabled or is removed or has died, to what does the Vice President succeed: to the ''powers and duties of the said office,'' or to the office itself? There appears to be a reasonable amount of evidence from the proceedings of the convention from which to conclude that the Framers intended the Vice President to remain Vice President and to exercise the powers of the President until, in the words of the final clause, ''a President shall be elected.'' Nonetheless, when President Harrison died in 1841, Vice President Tyler, after initial hesitation, took the position that he was automatically President, 99 a precedent which has been followed subsequently and which is now permanently settled by Sec. 1 of the Twenty-fifth Amendment. That Amendment as well settles a number of other pressing questions with regard to presidential inability and succession.
- See more at:


I submit as stated... to prevent an ascension of Pence to the Presidency in the event of Removal of Trump, the scenario is better as I stated in the previous post. The declaration of illegitimacy of the Trump Presidency, for the causes I listed. I do not see Pence as being exempt from the previously listed acts and causes within the conducts previously described.

Do I think we have a system capable of such, at present I don't see the strength nor unity it would take to enact the acts of impeachment .
Do I think it right.. NO, because of the reasons I previously stated.


I grasp what you say, and understand the nature of "politicians protecting ones position of office", BUT,..... there is a matter far greater than "A Man" AND far greater than "A Man Retaining Political Office"... The matter should go to the value of the Nation as State, in being the United States. Yes, man if fallible, but man has to find what point in his fallibility which shows him to be less than being a man; and become a man who takes a stand for Justice for the Nation and Its Democracy and especially one whom has taken oath to Serve and Protect a Nation and its People as well as its System of Democracy.

These are "Ethical Matters" that go far and beyond "a man", and a mans position in office". The ramification are great, Presidential Actions last decades if not "generations". What we do, will make a great determination about the Future of America!!!!!

The power one chooses to protect, is costly to an "entire nation". Truth in these times of life as in many times before has known and seen man be of many things short of driven by Ethic's of such levels.

What we see is Party Before Nation and Protection of Office Above Serving the Justice for and the people and the nation. That is in essence a format of subversive conduct.

Truth is truth, no matter how many seeks to circumvent it, when one colludes to do so, one entangles not just ones-self, but the nation into a web of madness that may break the fragile nature of Democracy at its core.


Empires Fall, but they do so for a conglomeration of factors, and included in that is Ethical failure, not many nations survive such, nor has there been many empires to survive such. Those that did, did so via feudal means, and that too means they were forever changed. Often never to reach the height they may have once held.

As to the nature of Party and how they function, I would not foresee a Democratic Administration going on such a rage of retribution, We cannot become of any measure of selective amnesia, when reviewing the past, and we need not go far, that implies to reflect upon the stand of the entire Republican administration and much of its constituency chose a posture of Pledge to Oppose Obama, it matter not what the issue or concern was, they chose a posture of opposition by motive of contempt of his presence in being.

I for one cannot omit as previously stated and discussed the engagement of Confederate Aspiration which has been demonstrated in the aims of diminishing the Federal Governance and Regulatory Authority and deferring to State Rights as aim and intent to usurp Federal Regulatory Governance.
This goes further to address the fact, it is never in the American History of its Governance as a Nation had to deal with this level of interacting by an Aspiring Presidential Candidate and a Sitting President to have such extensive involvements with a known enemy of the American Democracy of the United States.

If we as a society can vividly speak about the acts of unprecedented conduct, then we must be aware that when we make claim to deal with what is unprecedented, then we have opened the door to engage the unprecedented acts of declaring illegitimacy in the office of the President. Yet, that sound expansively abstract, and to some even outrageous. But... what does it take to preserve the Democracy of the United States and what is War, when it become an attack from within the confines of our own governance by acts and conduct that is subversive, and characteristic of treasonous factors?

It's likely a discussion that not only our elected official are equally reluctant to claim or state, our media had "danced around it" while they claim not to dance, but as the music plays they continue to move with the rhythm.

Not only do we look at the Constitution, but we look at the many engagement of discussion that were to precede as well as to follow the same Constitution, and we find an expanse of principled factors, that are quite extensive and very elaborate. Some engaged by out Supreme Courts as well as in those who craft legislation, and study and engage what is of and within the Executive Sectors.

Much has been invested into the discussion and discovery of what is Executive Authority, and what is Congressional Authority and where and how those separation of powers function. Our Constitution is a Living Document, it is not Static.



In speaking of unprecedented activities, we can hope best that no Civil Unrest Spread across the nation or is invoked in massive war fashion in any area or district.
as such:
One might ask what is Martial Law and Domestic Disorder

Quote:
''If, in foreign invasion or civil war, the courts are actually closed, and it is impossible to administer criminal justice according to law, then, on the theater of active military operations, where war really prevails, there is a necessity to furnish a substitute for the civil authority, thus overthrown, to preserve the safety of the army and society; and as no power is left but the military, it is allowed to govern by martial rule until the laws can have their free course. As necessity creates the rule, so it limits its duration; for, if this government is continued after the courts are reinstated, it is a gross usurpation of power. Martial rule can never exist where the courts are open, and in proper and unobstructed exercise of their jurisdiction. It is also confined to the locality of actual war . See more at:
Quote:
''Congress has the power not only to raise and support and govern armies but to declare war. It has, therefore, the power to provide by law for carrying on war. This power necessarily extends to all legislation essential to the prosecution of war with vigor and success, except such as interferes with the command of the forces and the conduct of campaigns. That power and duty belong to the President and Commander-in-Chief. Both these powers are derived from the Constitution, but neither is defined by that instrument. Their extent must be determined by their nature, and by the principles of our institutions. See more at:

What history has shown us, is the act of Civil War has been a reality, and there is nothing that prevents it from becoming an eventuality.

We sit and view such things in other lands and think ourselves immune, but much we don't know about the details that lead to such in other lands, but our media paints what it does, be it partial but certainly inconclusive.

Last edited by Chance and Change; 06-07-2017 at 09:27 PM..
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