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Old 06-20-2017, 10:17 AM
 
Location: NW Nevada
14,154 posts, read 11,634,027 times
Reputation: 13243

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This is a topic that really needs to be examined closely. On the surface and in particular to uninformed voters where these measures have been put to ballot, it sounds like a good idea. Just "common sense." A simplistic way to keep criminals from buying guns not just from licensed dealers, but from anyone. However it's NOT that simple and overlooks some very important issues that I have to date not seen addressed.


Firstly, criminals will not follow any such law when they sell any gun to anyone. Their inventory is stolen any way and is already well outside all other existing laws. Second, and more important, such requirements are totally unenforceable. There is no way for the state to know when any individual firearm changed hands. Most guns have been in circulation for quite a while. There is no way to determine when a gun was sold to who or where it originally was purchased. It could have changed owner several times since the original purchase.


NV voters approved such a measure last November, and now the state has found out they can't enforce it. Not without ( here comes the caveat) a central data base of firearms in private hands. They have to know who owns what guns. Without that, there is just no way to know whether or not an individual gun was sold within the guidelines of the new law. That horse has left the barn and been running wild for far to long, in figurative terms.


Private BC laws basically requires all firearms owners to operate under the same guidelines as FFL dealers. Keeping a detailed inventory of everything they own. And in order to enforce the law the state would need that list as well. There is no other way to ensure compliance. If a person sells or even gifts an individual firearm, that would have to be reported to the state complete with make, model and serial number as no longer being in their possession. In an inheritance situation it would be a nightmare.


Such laws under requirement for central registry also opens the door for the state to conduct random inventory of private owners to ensure compliance. They would be able to come into peoples homes, and make them produce all their registered firearms. "Common sense" right? They want to ensure people are following the law. Is that so bad? After all it's for the greater good, and think of the children.


The big difference between these state private BC laws and federally licensed FFL dealers is that at time of sale the make, model, type (long or hand gun) and serial number would have to be given to the enforcing agency so that their data can be updated. Federal law, the BATF, does not require this from FFL dealers , and the current BC system does not either. Private individuals will be under far stricter regulations than licensed dealers for record keeping.


BATF conducts audits annually on FFL dealers to track inventory and ensure compliance with federal laws. However they are not allowed to use the store records for a central information base. They can only check to assure all inventory left the store legally. The sales records stay with the dealer. private background check laws are nothing but an end around to establishing central firearms ownership data bases. This is something that needs to be brought up and I haven't seen even the NRA do so yet.


As I said, NV is finding all this out the hard way. It's a snow job, and I've seen even staunch 2A supporters buy off on it as a good thing. Certain details of how the state is going to enforce this law have just sailed right past people. They see it as a concession that isn't so bad and might actually do something about illegal sales to unqualified people. But it doesn't. It does however open the door wide to things the anti firearms groups have been after for years, and been unable to obtain. Complete lists of firearms and who owns them. All compiled neatly in government files.


Every country that has ever done a ban and confiscation measure has first required central registration. Australia, the poster child for the anti 2A types, did exactly that. As did the UK. Wake up firearms rights advocates. All that glitters is not gold. These details my have been inadvertent on the part of the anti gun groups when advocating for private sale BCs. But I'm dubious about that. They may not be as stupid as they sound. What I have outlined above here are glaringly obvious and serious problems with even the idea of requiring background checks for private sales.


NV has found this out. The cats out of the bag here now. Popular vote or no, they will have to go back to the drawing board with things. Now that people actually know what will be required to make the new measure work, the picture has been changed. It will require modifications to the state constitution to enforce that are not going to be as easy to sell as the original idea. "Common sense" indeed...

 
Old 06-20-2017, 10:25 AM
 
Location: 15 months till retirement and I can leave the hell hole of New Yakistan
25,331 posts, read 14,048,526 times
Reputation: 6506
most conservatives and EVEN THE NRA have zero problems with background checks....easier background checks.....heck with today's technology a COMPLETE background check could be done in MINUTES,...too include medical (and a 'red flag' will NOT violate hipa laws either)


Better medical documentation and referalls.....if some one has a mental issue..document it for jiminy crickets sake..... young adults like adam lanza should have been committed to an institution long ago...and had the doctors and his mother actually seeked help for the boy, he would have

most conservatives and EVEN THE NRA have zero problems with......more education, more training.......require some classes.....heck most of us, who LEGALLY own handguns have taken the CC class....and the standard could set set federally, but the states have control of how they do it, to accomplish the mission

better communication between all of our alphabet/federal/state/city/local agencies.....that would help too, and not only about purchasing weapons, but all other things too such as missing child support, revoked licenses, voting registration, laudenberg rules, medical mistakes(would it be nice if doctor A knew that doctor B perscribed this, so he/she can NOT perscribe something that will counteract/bad side effect medicine(to include RX(A) knowing that RX(B) filled dis,dat or the other ding, etc)))

over 50% of the homeless are Vets, and over 85% of the homeless are homeless becuase of mental health issues... yet the liberals NEVER address it


WHAT ARE THE LIBERALS GOING TO DO/POLICY/FUND TO HELP WITH THE MENTAL HEALTH ISSSUES THAT ARE PLAGUING AMERICA......?????????


but to ban guns and to confisgate all weapons would not only be a violation of our 2nd amendment right...but also of the 4th amendment.......... the funny thing is liberals were all up in arms (pun intended) about "stop and frisk" saying it violated the 4th
 
Old 06-20-2017, 11:16 AM
 
9,600 posts, read 4,598,726 times
Reputation: 5464
There is a state law in Missouri that bans registration of firearms. More states need that.
 
Old 06-20-2017, 11:16 AM
 
Location: NW Nevada
14,154 posts, read 11,634,027 times
Reputation: 13243
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
most conservatives and EVEN THE NRA have zero problems with background checks....easier background checks.....heck with today's technology a COMPLETE background check could be done in MINUTES,...too include medical (and a 'red flag' will NOT violate hipa laws either)


Better medical documentation and referalls.....if some one has a mental issue..document it for jiminy crickets sake..... young adults like adam lanza should have been committed to an institution long ago...and had the doctors and his mother actually seeked help for the boy, he would have

most conservatives and EVEN THE NRA have zero problems with......more education, more training.......require some classes.....heck most of us, who LEGALLY own handguns have taken the CC class....and the standard could set set federally, but the states have control of how they do it, to accomplish the mission

better communication between all of our alphabet/federal/state/city/local agencies.....that would help too, and not only about purchasing weapons, but all other things too such as missing child support, revoked licenses, voting registration, laudenberg rules, medical mistakes(would it be nice if doctor A knew that doctor B perscribed this, so he/she can NOT perscribe something that will counteract/bad side effect medicine(to include RX(A) knowing that RX(B) filled dis,dat or the other ding, etc)))

over 50% of the homeless are Vets, and over 85% of the homeless are homeless becuase of mental health issues... yet the liberals NEVER address it


WHAT ARE THE LIBERALS GOING TO DO/POLICY/FUND TO HELP WITH THE MENTAL HEALTH ISSSUES THAT ARE PLAGUING AMERICA......?????????


but to ban guns and to confisgate all weapons would not only be a violation of our 2nd amendment right...but also of the 4th amendment.......... the funny thing is liberals were all up in arms (pun intended) about "stop and frisk" saying it violated the 4th

The 4th amendment in conjunction with the 2nd is the problem they are finding here with making private ales of firearms subject to background checks. There's just NO way to enforce it without a central registry. Something the NRA and pro firearms rights people have been opposed to since day one. Which is my point here. I don't have a problem with background checks. I have seen first hand the current system stop unqualified buyers. How some of these even thought they could skate through an FFL dealer is beyond me.


However, requiring BCs for individual private sales, as good as it may sound, just won't work without using the Constitution ( state and federal in NVs case) for toilet paper. The new law here cannot be enforced, and I don't see it working anywhere any better.
 
Old 06-20-2017, 11:21 AM
 
9,600 posts, read 4,598,726 times
Reputation: 5464
I think it was Oregon who passed the same kind of law and the sheriffs refuse to try to enforce it.
 
Old 06-20-2017, 11:26 AM
 
29,751 posts, read 16,439,768 times
Reputation: 13823
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
most conservatives and EVEN THE NRA have zero problems with background checks....easier background checks.....heck with today's technology a COMPLETE background check could be done in MINUTES,...too include medical (and a 'red flag' will NOT violate hipa laws either)


Better medical documentation and referalls.....if some one has a mental issue..document it for jiminy crickets sake..... young adults like adam lanza should have been committed to an institution long ago...and had the doctors and his mother actually seeked help for the boy, he would have

most conservatives and EVEN THE NRA have zero problems with......more education, more training.......require some classes.....heck most of us, who LEGALLY own handguns have taken the CC class....and the standard could set set federally, but the states have control of how they do it, to accomplish the mission

better communication between all of our alphabet/federal/state/city/local agencies.....that would help too, and not only about purchasing weapons, but all other things too such as missing child support, revoked licenses, voting registration, laudenberg rules, medical mistakes(would it be nice if doctor A knew that doctor B perscribed this, so he/she can NOT perscribe something that will counteract/bad side effect medicine(to include RX(A) knowing that RX(B) filled dis,dat or the other ding, etc)))

over 50% of the homeless are Vets, and over 85% of the homeless are homeless becuase of mental health issues... yet the liberals NEVER address it


WHAT ARE THE LIBERALS GOING TO DO/POLICY/FUND TO HELP WITH THE MENTAL HEALTH ISSSUES THAT ARE PLAGUING AMERICA......?????????


but to ban guns and to confisgate all weapons would not only be a violation of our 2nd amendment right...but also of the 4th amendment.......... the funny thing is liberals were all up in arms (pun intended) about "stop and frisk" saying it violated the 4th
Which is why I wont give any money to the NRA. and its also an example of how conservatives arent much different than libs.
 
Old 06-20-2017, 11:35 AM
 
Location: 15 months till retirement and I can leave the hell hole of New Yakistan
25,331 posts, read 14,048,526 times
Reputation: 6506
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
The 4th amendment in conjunction with the 2nd is the problem they are finding here with making private ales of firearms subject to background checks. There's just NO way to enforce it without a central registry. Something the NRA and pro firearms rights people have been opposed to since day one. Which is my point here. I don't have a problem with background checks. I have seen first hand the current system stop unqualified buyers. How some of these even thought they could skate through an FFL dealer is beyond me.


However, requiring BCs for individual private sales, as good as it may sound, just won't work without using the Constitution ( state and federal in NVs case) for toilet paper. The new law here cannot be enforced, and I don't see it working anywhere any better.
it could be done, but it could be tricky with access etc

1. make it easy and no-cost to call/internet a background check...

2. make it generic to where no personal/private info is given to those that have no need to know... ie.rusults are: background good, go ahead with sale...or red flag code 1234, no sale today, have prospective buyer call 555-555-5555 to straighten out situation before sale.
 
Old 06-20-2017, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Arizona, The American Southwest
51,816 posts, read 29,901,232 times
Reputation: 90880
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
most conservatives and EVEN THE NRA have zero problems with background checks....easier background checks.....heck with today's technology a COMPLETE background check could be done in MINUTES,...too include medical (and a 'red flag' will NOT violate hipa laws either)


Better medical documentation and referalls.....if some one has a mental issue..document it for jiminy crickets sake..... young adults like adam lanza should have been committed to an institution long ago...and had the doctors and his mother actually seeked help for the boy, he would have

most conservatives and EVEN THE NRA have zero problems with......more education, more training.......require some classes.....heck most of us, who LEGALLY own handguns have taken the CC class....and the standard could set set federally, but the states have control of how they do it, to accomplish the mission

better communication between all of our alphabet/federal/state/city/local agencies.....that would help too, and not only about purchasing weapons, but all other things too such as missing child support, revoked licenses, voting registration, laudenberg rules, medical mistakes(would it be nice if doctor A knew that doctor B perscribed this, so he/she can NOT perscribe something that will counteract/bad side effect medicine(to include RX(A) knowing that RX(B) filled dis,dat or the other ding, etc)))

over 50% of the homeless are Vets, and over 85% of the homeless are homeless becuase of mental health issues... yet the liberals NEVER address it


WHAT ARE THE LIBERALS GOING TO DO/POLICY/FUND TO HELP WITH THE MENTAL HEALTH ISSSUES THAT ARE PLAGUING AMERICA......?????????


but to ban guns and to confisgate all weapons would not only be a violation of our 2nd amendment right...but also of the 4th amendment.......... the funny thing is liberals were all up in arms (pun intended) about "stop and frisk" saying it violated the 4th
A reminder, the NRA backed the instant background check back in the 1990s because it DID NOT include gun registration. As the author of this thread said, there is no possible way background checks on private purchases and sales can be enforced. Individuals with extensive criminal history are buying a selling guns, and extending the background checks to include private sales will not stop those individuals from conducting such illegal transactions. The only way to stop such sales from taking place is to have better enforcement of existing laws and go after those criminal enterprises in various ways.
 
Old 06-20-2017, 12:46 PM
 
13,612 posts, read 10,302,753 times
Reputation: 17659
I thought that one was shot down. I'm surprised it passed here. I voted against it.

Wasn't the procedure supposed to be that for a private sale, you just take the gun to a licensed dealer, pay him a few bucks and he runs the instant background check?
 
Old 06-20-2017, 12:53 PM
 
6,373 posts, read 3,580,666 times
Reputation: 7294
Not far enough for me. Background checks should be required to gift, or inherit to, a gun to a relative also.
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