$10k per person for healthcare a good deal? (Pelosi, Obama, economy)

[irspow]

Originally Posted by PCALMike

Why cant you just answer simple questions about how specifically this would work? Who decides what the traffic laws should be in a system of voluntary taxation? Anti-trust legislation and patent laws are decided by which people? I am curious.

You are simply, well I guess it is not simple, asking for a what-if for any conceivable situation that you can dream up. Are we supposed to make this thread last 30 years or something? Who? Free people. How would it specifically work? That would depend on those who are making an agreement with each other.

You can only think in terms of an omnipotent centralized institution of violence and aggression imposing its will upon everyone else. If you approach trying to think about human freedom from that perspective, you will never understand what results from human freedom in any situation, because by conditioning, you don't think for yourself, you look up to the Holy State to impose the solution upon you.

Free people interacting freely and voluntarily will produce infinitely many different results. None of which are enforced upon everyone else. Each segment of the population will come to their own solution to each problem so that it addresses their particular individual interests.

If you cannot grasp how that would work, I again would refer you to the works of Mises or Rothbard for example. They have both written extensively on the subject, if you are actually curious.

But I have a suspicion, that you merely want to be anti-human freedom for the mere sake of being anti-human freedom.

"How would me and my neighbor live next door to each other without robbing each other and destroying each others property?" I would think that two adults could figure that out for themselves, but apparently maybe they cannot. Do you need to hire someone to protect your house for you, or would you rather arm yourself to protect your own home. That is your choice. You don't need government making such choices for you.

[No_Recess]

Originally Posted by PCALMike

But you refuse to be specific. Who writes anti-trust legislation. Who writes food, air quality regulations.

"Agreed-upon resolution councils" is not a proper answer.

You want some type of contract for people who live in an area and breathe a certain air? And going to another area, a new contract must be signed? Every time someone eats something we have to take someone's word that the thousands of ingredients used in modern food production wont cause any harm or future cancer 30 years down the road?

Who writes anti-trust legislation?

Anyone who wants to live by the tenets of said legislation and convinces another party to sign a contract.

Who writes food and air quality regulations?

See my first answer.

Instead of looking to me for the answers part of the experience of freedom is thinking on your own. I know this is such a foreign concept to the collectivist who simply wants to pay taxes to have armed agents of the State impose universal rules on folks. But morally I really can't subscribe to such a mindset.

[No_Recess]

Originally Posted by PCALMike

Why cant you just answer simple questions about how specifically this would work? Who decides what the traffic laws should be in a system of voluntary taxation? Anti-trust legislation and patent laws are decided by which people? I am curious.

Any party that wants to enter into such contracts. Instead of getting up in the morning, paying taxes to armed agents to do your dirty work you simply treat everyone with respect and use non-violence to persuade folks to live in ways you would like your world to be.

Sometimes it will work. Other times it won't. Life is messy. You folks can keep looking to the government for answers. You can keep praying that voting will work "next time". You can keep using force to try to make things "better" but history shows that not only does it NOT work it is immoral.

The ends don't justify the means as irspow has in his profile.

[PCALMike]

Originally Posted by No_Recess

Who writes anti-trust legislation?

Anyone who wants to live by the tenets of said legislation and convinces another party to sign a contract.

Who writes food and air quality regulations?

See my first answer.

Instead of looking to me for the answers part of the experience of freedom is thinking on your own. I know this is such a foreign concept to the collectivist who simply wants to pay taxes to have armed agents of the State impose universal rules on folks. But morally I really can't subscribe to such a mindset.

Sounds like what you are suggesting is nothing more than splitting the country up into tiny pieces with millions of laws, each for every little neighborhood. Anyone who wants to buy something from anyone cant rely on any safety laws being enforced either and everyone just have to "sign a contract" and hope that materials and ingredients that are banned today will not show up in your dream society. Which of course it will and cancer is the end result. You want everyone to be experts on anti-trust legislation and anyone who lives in that society will write it by themselves? This is just hilarious. Anti-trust legislation requires experts and a government with teeth to enforce the laws.

[No_Recess]

Originally Posted by Weichert

Except his thing was to kill. Or try to anyway.

Other people do live very simple. For the most part the Amish do. Join them. You might be happier.

But the State raids Amish farms from time to time to make sure they aren't selling fresh milk. Imagine that, selling milk gets you swatted by armed thugs in the name of freedom.

Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk - Washington Times

I've had many dealings with the Amish growing up near them in Ohio. They have no love lost for the government. They can still build and raise a home/barn in mere hours but not as fast as they used to with the State inspecting their work.

Hysterical to see a house raised in hours with craftsmanship that no government builder could ever imagine being subject to State inspection. Kind of like the makers of Chef Boyardee taste-testing the menu at a family-owned authentic Italian restaurant.

[PCALMike]

Originally Posted by No_Recess

Any party that wants to enter into such contracts. Instead of getting up in the morning, paying taxes to armed agents to do your dirty work you simply treat everyone with respect and use non-violence to persuade folks to live in ways you would like your world to be.

Sometimes it will work. Other times it won't. Life is messy. You folks can keep looking to the government for answers. You can keep praying that voting will work "next time". You can keep using force to try to make things "better" but history shows that not only does it NOT work it is immoral.

The ends don't justify the means as irspow has in his profile.

Yes, so each driver signs his own "contract" with every other driver on the road right. Thousands of "traffic law contracts" all over. Sounds like a nightmare to have to sign contracts every second of your life.

[strad]

Originally Posted by PedroMartinez

So, it's my understanding that for California to have healthcare for each person in their state covered with a single payer program, it would cost $400 billion.

Since there are about 40 million people in California, that would be roughly $10,000 per person or $40,000 per family of four each year.

Is this considered a good deal to you?

According to the Department of Health, that would be less than we currently pay
$10,345 per person: U.S. health care spending reaches new peak | PBS NewsHour

[Weichert]

Originally Posted by No_Recess

But the State raids Amish farms from time to time to make sure they aren't selling fresh milk. Imagine that, selling milk gets you swatted by armed thugs in the name of freedom.

Feds shut down Amish farm for selling fresh milk - Washington Times

I've had many dealings with the Amish growing up near them in Ohio. They have no love lost for the government. They can still build and raise a home/barn in mere hours but not as fast as they used to with the State inspecting their work.

Hysterical to see a house raised in hours with craftsmanship that no government builder could ever imagine being subject to State inspection. Kind of like the makers of Chef Boyardee taste-testing the menu at a family-owned authentic Italian restaurant.

Nonetheless, they do live a much simpler (and peaceful) life.

Certainly a lifestyle to look at if one is so opposed to the way American life is today.

[No_Recess]

Originally Posted by PCALMike

Yes, so each driver signs his own "contract" with every other driver on the road right. Thousands of "traffic law contracts" all over. Sounds like a nightmare to have to sign contracts every second of your life.

Sounds like you're not very bright.

Most laws in place are pretty good ideas (don't kill, don't rape, don't run red lights).

They can still be upheld voluntarily by societal pressure minus brute force by a centralized authority. That's all I'm saying.

Let's say me, Nepenthe, irspow and you all live next to each other by a big lake. The lake is a good source of fish, fresh water, recreation, etc.

All of us can use the lake because no one person is mixing their labor with it. No one owns the lake.

So one day me, Nepenthe, and irspow decide that some rules for using the lake are a good idea. Don't dump trash in it, don't over-fish it, don't block access to it and so on.

We bring you the contract. You don't like it for whatever reason. No problem. We don't have the right to make you sign it nor do we have the right to enforce penalties in it on you because you didn't sign it.

In your world though, we would have the right to enforce it on you no matter if you signed it or not. So keep that in mind.

So, what happens with the four of us up at the lake? The three that signed the contract carry on and you do too. You dump trash in the lake, over-fish, and don't allow access to it...trying to put up barriers.

Fair enough.

But guess what was in the contract the 3 of us signed and you didn't? It says that anyone who doesn't agree to these terms will not receive our services or help in certain matters.

This is where things get uncomfortable for you.

irspow is an auto mechanic and now refuses to work on your car when he did so before.

Nepenthe is a dentist and now he won't fill your cavities.

I'm a roofer and will no longer work on your shingles.

Catch my drift? We can use pressure without denying the individual his right to do as he wishes to do things we would like them to do.

This is where your State has failed us. Not only does it protect bad people from being held accountable by others it makes us serve them.

That's because we don't own our minds and bodies in statism. They are on loan to us from the State. They tell us when and where and who to use our labor on/with/etc.

This is slavery.

So in a nutshell, you've got to do a little thinking on whether or not you want to sign that contract. Nobody is forcing you do so and you will never be enslaved. However, it is probably in your best interest to do so. But if not, that's cool too.

[No_Recess]

Originally Posted by Weichert

Nonetheless, they do live a much simpler (and peaceful) life.

Certainly a lifestyle to look at if one is so opposed to the way American life is today.

Why do they need State interference though?

Their food and craftsmanship are vastly superior to anything the government inspects. I can personally attest to that living near them.