Senate rejects single-payer healthcare (wage, elect, government, federal)

[workingclasshero]

Originally Posted by sanspeur

Except the people in every other developed country that already have it, and love it. Plus support has a growing majority in the USA.

and NONE of those other countries have a FDA like ours

singlepayer..or the non-singlepayer of medicare for all will not work in our country where you have so much bureaucratic red tape, and where less than 1/4 of the country pays federal income tax

[StillwaterTownie]

Originally Posted by natalie469

And you can get hit by a car the next day and end of in the hospital with broken bones or in a coma. Or maybe you get diagnosed with cancer. Why should my premiums go up to pay for your hospital stay. I'm sorry, but everyone needs to pay into the system because you never know what will happen to you.

So, the Republicans who are against ObamaCare don't think about that.

[natalie469]

Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie

So, the Republicans who are against ObamaCare don't think about that.

This is my reasoning for single payer

[StillwaterTownie]

Originally Posted by workingclasshero

and NONE of those other countries have a FDA like ours

singlepayer..or the non-singlepayer of medicare for all will not work in our country where you have so much bureaucratic red tape, and where less than 1/4 of the country pays federal income tax

Then what will work? Well organized and funded charity care for the poor?

[detshen]

Originally Posted by kell490

Canada if you want any an MRI, or Pet scan takes months to get one. I know someone who lives there had a torn disc in his back he could not get an MRI for 6 months which made it worse because the doctor mis-diagnosed the problem sent him to PT when he really needed surgery.

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

Depends on what it's for. If it's for a non life threatening issue like back pain you might wait..so what? No one is going to rush the guy off to surgery for a 'torn disc' in the US either, other less invasive procedures are tried first. The exception would be if there was a neuropathy that might have caused permanent damage.

I waited 5 months in Nevada to see a Rheumatologist and I had excellent insurance.

2sleepy is correct. This is a terrible anecdote if your goal is to diss the Canadian system. Back pain supposedly caused by disc issues is extremely common and surgery should always be the last resort. PT, NSAIDS and time are the appropriate approach. Most of the time we do not know what actually causes back pain and dysfunction. MRIs are actually ridiculoulsy overused in this country and causing many uneccesary and ineffective surgeries. Studies have shown that half of all people with no pain will have MRIs that show a bulging or degenerated disc. That is another problem with a profit driven system, a medical office makes a great deal of money billing for these procedures so their effectiveness is not even questioned.

[workingclasshero]

Originally Posted by skeddy

I thought Dems wanted single payer .....

Senate rejects single-payer healthcare

An amendment to a healthcare bill that would create a single-payer healthcare system was defeated 57-0 Thursday in the Senate.

Several Democrats voted against the amendment, including Sens. Joe Donnelly of Indiana, Joe Manchin of West Virginia, Jon Tester of Montana and Angus King of Maine, an Independent. All 52 Republicans voted "no" and other Democrats voted "present," meaning that they like the proposal but believe it has flaws.

The vote occurred during the amendment phase as the Senate considers legislation that would repeal Obamacare. During this phase, senators can offer hundreds of amendments to change the bill.

The amendment was introduced by Sen. Steve Daines, R-Mont., and was a copy of a single-payer bill that has been introduced in the House by Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich., and has more than 100 Democratic co-sponsors. Often dubbed "Medicare for all," the proposal has gained traction among more left-leaning Democrats. The healthcare system would be paid for by raising income taxes on the top 5 percent of earners and raising taxes on payroll and self-employment income, unearned income, and stock and bond transactions.

Daines does not support a single-payer healthcare system, but he presented the amendment to force Democratic senators running for re-election in 2018 to take a position on the policy. Most Democrats voted "present" as a way to object to the political maneuver.

They did so at the urging of Conyers, who in a statement noted that single-payer healthcare has been growing in popularity and said that he would want his bill to have open hearings and input from experts, a route that is different from the one Republicans took on their healthcare plan.

Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., made a similar appeal to Democrats. He said he would not support the "sham" amendment, particularly since the Senate is in the dark about what is in the healthcare bill being debated. Sanders went on to say that he hopes the U.S. will join other developed nations in implementing a single-payer system.

Sanders long called for a "Medicare for all" approach to healthcare, a proposal he campaigned on when running for the Democratic nomination for president against Hillary Clinton.

1. get your facts together....medicare for all is NOT a singlepayer system

many if not most conservatives/republicans would be all for singlepayer....if, if two questions could be answered

1. can you guarantee the level/quality of care...because we have seen the "Dept of Health horror clinics", and the all too many times we are reminded of the lack of quality from the VA

2. and the second, but probably most important question....How will we pay for it???

TRUE singplepayer...100% paid by the federal government, no copays, no deductibles.. to cover 323 million people will cost over 5.75-6.25 trillion for the first year, with each and every years the cost increasing with inflation

non-singlepayer "medicare for all", which is a 75/25 government insurance, which you not only have to buy supplemental insurance (or just pay the remainder out of pocket), but you also have copays will cost about 3.2 trillion

our current budget is about 3.5 trillion but our current revenue is about 3 trillion...about a half a trillion deficit.....of that 3.5 trillion dollar budget the federal government budgets about 1.2 trillion for mandatory health care (medicare,medicaid, va)

so where are you going to get the additional 2 to 5 trillion dollars to pay for some kind of singlepayer or medicare for all????

taxing the rich to death....well that will cover the first year...then what, when there are no more rich to tax.....

we have 323 million people here in the USA, yet less than 1/4 are tax payers

2. we (the taxpayer) cant afford any type of singlepayer or even medicare for all

singlepayer is NOT sustainable at any level when you are talking about 320 million patients, and less than 70 million taxpayers


they (the government) cant lower much..the best the government could do is lower some prescription medicines




how are you going to control the cost of medical equipment(mri or x-ray machines, etc)??????most xray machine are made in Denmark



how are you going to control the cost of the rising electric bills the doctors/hospitals are facing????



how are you going to control the rising property tax/rent/mortgage that doctors face?????



how are you going to control the cost of supplies(gauze, plaster, silk, rubber, polystyrene( a oil product)?????especially some supplies that aren't even American



how are you going to control the cost of people salaries???? a maximum wage???



how they are going to control the employment costs for Doctors, nurses, technicians, hospital food operators, hospital linen cleaning service, custodial services, medical transcribers........are you going to 'nationalize' every profession that is even remotely connected to medicine????



how are they going to control malpractice INSURANCE COSTS?????



things are expensive

for example the average hospital uses a lot of electricity...about 500,000 a month...that's over 6 million dollars in electric costs yearly.....you are not going to cut that piece of overhead

when you go to the local doctor and pay him/her 100..its not 100 dollars going into his pocket...there are lots of other COSTS


they have lots of overhead costs:
rent/lease/mortgage
property taxes
electric costs
equipment costs(and many pieces of equipment are not even made here)
cleaning costs
supply costs
personnel costs
etc


singlepayer will not control these costs




medicine (like anyother SERVICE) costs money,,(,money that our government doesn't have)




want to know A BIG REASON why its lower in those other countries.??? salaries.....a nurse in France(actually most of europe) makes about 1500-1800 a month(in us dollars)..that's 18-22,000 a year.....meanwhile according to payscale.com the average Rn makes 40-68,000 in the usa
FranceRegistered Nurse (RN) Salary (France) .....average 22,000 euro (about 25,000 dollars us)
USARegistered Nurse (RN), Emergency Room Salary ....average 63,000 dollars
Professional Nurse Average Salary Income - International Comparison


so what is it that singlepayer supporters 'think' or 'believe' we will be able to negotiate ??? medicines maybe....salaries not likely...other supply costs not likely.....property taxes and overhead...not a chance


singlepayer would cost between 3.5 TRILLION and 6 trillion ANNUALLY.....and will INCREASE everyyear...the taxpayers cant afford that

[Jaggy001]

When people get sick, we treat them anyway whether or not they can pay. The ERs are full of people without insurance and who are often there for fairly minor ailments. We have Medicaid for the poor and Medicare for the over 65s. The whole point of single payer is ensuring that everyone pays something into the system because, one way or another, everyone is going to get treated.

But single payer is only one part of the problem. The other part is that our health care is ridiculously expensive and ridiculously bureaucratic compared to any other developed country. We need to get the cost and the complexity out of the system.

In reality, our system needs a complete overhaul.

[workingclasshero]

Originally Posted by detshen

2sleepy is correct. This is a terrible anecdote if your goal is to diss the Canadian system. Back pain supposedly caused by disc issues is extremely common and surgery should always be the last resort. PT, NSAIDS and time are the appropriate approach. Most of the time we do not know what actually causes back pain and dysfunction. MRIs are actually ridiculoulsy overused in this country and causing many uneccesary and ineffective surgeries. Studies have shown that half of all people with no pain will have MRIs that show a bulging or degenerated disc. That is another problem with a profit driven system, a medical office makes a great deal of money billing for these procedures so their effectiveness is not even questioned.

the problem is our FDA takes 20+ years to approve things

real life..I was injured in Iraq...the FDA said we can only do FUSION to backs..meanwhile disc REPLACEMENT has been done in europe for the last 25 years....I flew to europe and had the procedure done..and bluecross covered it....the problem I talk about is OUR GOVERNMENT






patient needs a MRI...the government (va) NOPE use an xray...first time
2. xray doesn't show much..patient needs an MRI...the government (va) use the xray...you have DDD
3. patient doc I am in pain,,are you sure its DDD..doc the xray shows some funny spaces, could be DDD or could be something else...let's ask for a MRI..the government nope lets xray (each xray is RADIATING the person btw)...again funny spacing...must be DDD
4. same
5. same
6. same
7. same
8 same
.
.
.
.
15 same
.
.
23 same

23 times with the VA xray...its DDD(degenerative disc disease)


got to the doctor and PAY FOR THE MRI out of pocket...and we find out its... one CRUSHED disc, and 2 ruptured discs....now choices...the government(va) FUSION and still have pain, and limited movement(because at the time the FDA would not allow the replacement that had been being done in europe for 25 years)(the FDA finally approved single level artificial discs in 2004, (the va and tri-care refused saying it was 'experimental"))...or non-government(blue cross+ my own wallet) and get a multi level disc replacement (L5/s1 and L5/L4)


that is freaking government care...crappy care....I know because the patient at the VA was ME

[Threerun]

Originally Posted by Jaggy001

When people get sick, we treat them anyway whether or not they can pay. The ERs are full of people without insurance and who are often there for fairly minor ailments. We have Medicaid for the poor and Medicare for the over 65s. The whole point of single payer is ensuring that everyone pays something into the system because, one way or another, everyone is going to get treated.

But single payer is only one part of the problem. The other part is that our health care is ridiculously expensive and ridiculously bureaucratic compared to any other developed country. We need to get the cost and the complexity out of the system.

In reality, our system needs a complete overhaul.

Hell I'd say kick their arses out if they don't have healthcare. That's what Trump wants.

I have excellent coverage and I'm immune, so F* It. I could care a less about the southern red state morons anyway. Let their states deal with the sick and dying.

And they messaged 'death panels' with Palin- Whoo isn't that a kick in the pants.

[workingclasshero]

Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie

Then what will work? Well organized and funded charity care for the poor?

I don't have an answer...but the first step is get the freaking government out of health care.... too much red tape