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If you support affirmative action, I guess you believe some people aren't able to make it on their own merit and need help to compete against others.
Which groups aren't as capable and need this help?
I'd be willing to reconsider if you present a good argument as to what handicaps them intellectually.
Are you willing to accept that some benefit from privilege that comes with their race, gender and socioeconomic background?
I'll give you two prime examples
Race and Gender: My wife was recently part of a hiring comittee that was comprised of her (a woman of color) and three white men. They all agreed that the two final candidates, a black woman and a white man were equally qualified. The three men all preferred the white man because they thought he was a "better culture fit" and "someone they thought they could be friends with". He got the job. Affirmitive Action is needed to combat situations like that, because the people who make hiring decisions are overwhelmingly white and male.
Socioeconomic background: I went to a selective-admission high school in NYC. Admission is based EXCLUSIVELY on test scores and the acceptance rate is lower than Harvard's. Most of my classmates were hard-working Asians and upper-middle class to wealthy white people, with a smattering of blacks and Latinos, who were mostly middle-class. I was one of the very few non-immigrant poor kids. Most of the white (read wealthier) kids parents were able to pay for expensive test-prep programs. As the city has gotten wealthier, black and latino enrollment has dropped even lower than when I was in school, and it isn't because black and latino kids have gotten dumber.
When runners race around a track, the one in the outside lane gets to start in the front. That's not an unfair advantage. That's leveling the playing field.
In college admissions? That's what this thread is about. College admissions.
What percentage were they of the application pool?
Yes which is why their study covered the benefits of affirmative action in college enrollment for women.
And stop moving the goalposts. You pointed to a low participation rate in an industry as evidence that women don't benefit from affirmative action. If a low participation rate is all it takes to disprove the benefits of affirmative action, then I could make the case that the low participation rate of blacks at the University of Vermont fits the bill. But that would be a dumb argument, wouldn't it?
If you support extracurricular activities and sports participation in high school being part of the admission criteria, I guess you're admitting that certain Sally's and Brett's of the world can't compete against others and make it on their own merits, right?
ANY extracurricular activity. That presents limitless opportunity for every applicant to shine in an area of skill/ability/talent, whatever it is.
What are you talking about? You make absolutely NO sense. Enrollment should be based on merit, not skin color or gender. Wow.
So after you just said that you'd give preferential treatment to an athlete, now you're backtracking and saying that it should just be on merit? Why don't you sit down and think about what your position is and get back to us when you can be consistent...
Are you willing to accept that some benefit from privilege that comes with their race, gender and socioeconomic background?
I'll give you two prime examples
Race and Gender: My wife was recently part of a hiring comittee that was comprised of her (a woman of color) and three white men. They all agreed that the two final candidates, a black woman and a white man were equally qualified. The three men all preferred the white man because they thought he was a "better culture fit" and "someone they thought they could be friends with". He got the job. Affirmitive Action is needed to combat situations like that, because the people who make hiring decisions are overwhelmingly white and male.
Socioeconomic background: I went to a selective-admission high school in NYC. Admission is based EXCLUSIVELY on test scores and the acceptance rate is lower than Harvard's. Most of my classmates were hard-working Asians and upper-middle class to wealthy white people, with a smattering of blacks and Latinos, who were mostly middle-class. I was one of the very few non-immigrant poor kids. Most of the white (read wealthier) kids parents were able to pay for expensive test-prep programs. As the city has gotten wealthier, black and latino enrollment has dropped even lower than when I was in school, and it isn't because black and latino kids have gotten dumber.
When runners race around a track, the one in the outside lane gets to start in the front. That's not an unfair advantage. That's leveling the playing field.
I have had similar scenarios at work.
It is really odd to me that so many white men seemingly cannot understand that this stuff occurs every single day in the workplace in particular. Then they complain about blacks being overrepresented in government employment. Fact of the matter is that government is required to use AA and cannot discriminate in hiring, so many blacks seek government employment are are forced into that route because they cannot get a job in the private sector due to the reasons cited by your wife's co-workers on the interview committee.
I've actually gotten into rather heated discussions with interview committees over this sort of thing. Luckily at that job, I worked for a federal contractor who was also required to comply with AA. They didn't want to hire a more qualified black female candidate because they didn't like her name and didn't think our clients would "be able to pronounce her name." We did end up hiring her because I threatened to go to corporate with their BS reason. She was the only one with more than 5 years relevant experience and who had a Master's degree, yet they wanted to hire a white woman who was just out of school and had no experience so would have required extensive training.
I liked Affirmative Action when it first started. I don't think I had ever even seen a professional black American before that. I can remember--never had a black teacher, never saw a black doctor, no black people working at good jobs. We had about two black students in college! Token blacks back in the '60s.
It shouldn't have continued past about 20 years though. That's a generation. It gave a lot of people a leg up, an opportunity. If they took that opportunity--and a lot did--they, and the country are probably better off for it.
Being a woman, I didn't like having it apply to women though--maybe at first but not for years on end. That's where I saw first hand the dumbing down of America. I saw women who were unqualified hired for jobs when there were people who could have done the job better who didn't stand a chance. We had to move away because my husband couldn't get a job due to always having to hire a woman.
They should just end Affirmative Action. I didn't even know we still had it. If you are old enough to remember before and after, you will see that it did work. We don't need it to continue indefinitely though.
So after you just said that you'd give preferential treatment to an athlete, now you're backtracking and saying that it should just be on merit? Why don't you sit down and think about what your position is and get back to us when you can be consistent...
I guess you like to put words in my mouth. Athletes bring something to the university that some others can't. They MERIT a spot if the can contribute to the university in a meaningful way. That's the way capitalism works. How is allowing admission based solely on skin color, or gender a contribution? How do these people MERIT admission. Do you want unqualified people?
nobody has a problem with "Black Colleges" but heaven forbid some under qualified black doesn't make it into Duke or something. LAWSUIT!!!!
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