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I believe in a free market and that an employer can freely negotiate with a prospective employee better directly not through a union rep. There was a time with people had fewer options, when getting even a high school education was not available to most and people were at the mercy of their employers and were taken advantage of.
Most workers in large firms never even meet their actual employer let alone have an opportunity to "negotiate" with them. It's an absurd excuse to dismiss the value of unions and you just repeat it over and over. If you work for a large company you go to your immediate supervisor and ask for a raise and most of the time they just shrug. Merit based raises for line employees pretty much a thing of the past. Get a job at an Amazon warehouse and you get pay raises based on longevity and meeting performance standards, if you're better than anyone else in your unit you get moved to another unit which might be better, or might be worse. Not only can't you talk to Jeff Bezos, it simply wouldn't matter if you did.
And I have read articles where people are happy with their benefits & pay in 2017 unlike this article which is from 2013.
Happy with Amazon warehouse work? I'm not sure what gas changed... My son put himself through college working in the Amazon warehouse in Reno. He was a direct hire so he got better pay received benefits. Contract employees at least at that time did not get benefits and their pay was significantly lower than direct hires. But it was really hard work, my son wore a pedometer and on the average he walked 12 miles per shift, which might have been ok without all the bending stooping and lifting all night. At that time employees had to wait in line before entering or leaving the warehouse (sometimes for a half hour) off the clock to be searched.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Cravings
But there absolutely is a union in sight. Even the threat of unionization has influence on non-union labor relations.
As far as large corporations moving to low cost areas, it's up to the community of workers to decide if they want to capitalize on the opportunity or not. Amazon is not being benevolent that's for sure.
Unfortunately, unlike large corporate entities with armies of lawyers, individual employees are ignorant of their rights under labor law. Even if they are educated, the next step is educating their peers and creating awareness, then organizing for action. All of this takes time and work, usually unpaid.
Even within unions, large portions of the membership will be ignorant of their labor rights or even their own collective bargaining agreement.
If workers vote down a union, that is their prerogative. But it's good for all Americans to know that it is their protected right to consider.
You paint a knight in shining armor image of the union(s) and if their so good then why do different trades choose not to unionize when given the vote? I could post examples of abuse and you could post examples of benefits but that would go on forever. Companies are going to continue moving to lower cost states because so many of the rust belt states are taxing them into oblivion and mandatory union labor (is some cases) puts the nail in the coffin. I agree a percentage of people will always be ignorant of their labor rights regardless. I work in education and for the teachers who have worked in union systems there is not many kind words about the stupidity they had to comply with because of the union.
ok with 50k employees, I would assume that there is plenty of first line management, middle management upper management, and senior management
you '''should''' get an annual review of your performance (like a NCOER in the military), based on your performance is where your raises should come in...ie..you rated excellent we will award you a 10% raise...you did average/satisfactory you get a 3-5% raise, you need improvement = no raise
raises should not/never be just across the board based on title, like unions push....unions hate the term "pay for performance"
Performance based raises are a thing of the past in almost every large company. If there's a pay raise, it's chicken crap like 1% or 2% and is given to everyone from middle management on down.
I think unions are good because they can allow workers a practical way to negotiate with their employers getting more benefits and establishing their needs so that a dialogue can be had.
I think unions have amassed too much political power, just like corporations, and that this trend needs to be stopped.
You paint a knight in shining armor image of the union(s) and if their so good then why do different trades choose not to unionize when given the vote? I could post examples of abuse and you could post examples of benefits but that would go on forever. Companies are going to continue moving to lower cost states because so many of the rust belt states are taxing them into oblivion and mandatory union labor (is some cases) puts the nail in the coffin. I agree a percentage of people will always be ignorant of their labor rights regardless. I work in education and for the teachers who have worked in union systems there is not many kind words about the stupidity they had to comply with because of the union.
I don't paint a knight at all, I've been around a while, I've invested time to understand labor law, union right and limitations, how OSHA/MSHA really work. I'm more aware of the dysfunction about unions past and present than most people here. Literally have read books about it. I've seen members of some locals engaging in acts of vandalism and thuggery and I have no tolerance for it, won't defend it, it's a true embarrassment, and echos of organized labors darker past.
Let me tell you a story about this past week. An old man, 63 year old just organized in our union and this was his first union job. He had previously worked for some of the largest non-union contractors in our area. There's a phenomenon I've noticed that happens with organized guys, they carry their fear with them. Even though they go through an orientation explaining what the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers is about, they are still job scared.
This man, first thing in the morning sun isn't even up, went to use the port-o-john that was hanging partially off the curb. When he opened the door the john tipped forward and spilled it's content all over his feet and pants. He came in and told me, so I pushed him to go home and change. He kept saying no, he's alright, but I told him he literally smells like a toilet. He refused and kept working, he was willing to work covered in human excrement in the Texas heat to keep his job. When the foreman found out he pulled him aside and told him not to worry about his job, go home, change clothes, and he won't be docked for his time do this, he'd be paid like he never left.
A couple hours later he came back and said he got pulled over for 85 in a 70, first ticket in 30 years. Despite being told he needn't worry about his job, his anxiety to please the employer caused him to be irrational and break the law. He said where he used to work he would be pressured to work through because production was paramount over his dignity.
He's used to being "job scared". I remember that feeling, but I've learned to let that go. I have wage and benefit security. If I choose to take a layoff (and it's always been my choice because I'm a hot commodity), I know I don't have to spend time looking for work, or wonder what my wages will be, or wonder what health insurance my family will have. It's wonderful continuity and peace of mind. I try to explain this to the newly organized because it's very different from what they are used to and it's hard to let that fear go. I remember when I was a 2nd year non-union apprentice on a prevailing wage job (which we can thank Unions for), where 2 men stood by the gate just handing out pamphlets. They weren't being aggressive, they weren't being disrespectful, but I didn't even touch the paper he held out to me because I was scared to be seen near them.
Why, now that he's union would he carry this fear, anxiety with him? It's not rational, it's just culture, it's ingrained. We'd could look into the history of labor in the United States to get a better idea as to why this exists because it's really nothing new.
My guess is if he worked at the Nissan plant, he probably would've voted "NO" to the union, too. I get why people vote No, I don't believe all of those that vote "NO" really are anti-union, they're just scared for their jobs, and it's perfectly justifiable, management's anti-union campaigns are very effective, there are law firms, organizations, and books written to focus solely on prevent men and women from organizing. No one person can confront that with any expectation of success.
Last edited by Cheesesteak Cravings; 08-13-2017 at 08:49 PM..
I don't paint a knight at all, I've been around a while, I've invested time in understand labor law, union right and limitations, how OSHA/MSHA really work. I'm more aware of the dysfunction about unions past and present than most people here. Literally have read books about it. I've seen members of some locals engaging in acts of vandalism and thuggery and I have no tolerance for it, won't defend it, it's a true embarrassment, and echos of organized labors darker past.
Let me tell you a story about this past week. An old man, 63 year old just organized in our union and this was his first union job. He had previously worked for some of the largest non-union contractors in our area. There's a phenomenon I've noticed that happens with organized guys, they carry their fear with them. Even though they go through an orientation explaining what the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers is about, they are still job scared.
This man, first thing in the morning sun isn't even up, went to use the port-o-john that was hanging partially off the curb. When he opened the door the john tipped forward and spilled it's content all over his feet and pants. He came in and told me, so I pushed him to go home and change. He kept saying no, he's alright, but I told him he literally smells like a toilet. He refused and kept working, he was willing to work cover in human excrement in the Texas heat to keep his job. When the foreman found out he pulled him aside and told him not to worry about his job, go home, change clothes, and he won't be docked for his time do this, he'd be paid like he never left.
A couple hours later he came back and said he got pulled over for 85 in a 70, first ticket in 30 years. Despite being told he needn't worry about his job, his anxiety to please the employer caused him to be irrational and break the law. He said where he used to work he would be pressured to work through because production was paramount over his dignity.
He's used to being "job scared". I remember that feeling, but I've learned to let that go. I have wage and benefit security. If I choose to take a layoff (and it's always been my choice because I'm a hot commodity), I know I don't have to spend time looking for work, or wonder what my wages will be, or wonder what health insurance my family will have. It's wonderful continuity and peace of mind. I try to explain this to the newly organized because it's very different from what they are used to and it's hard to let that fear go. I remember when I was a 2nd year non-union apprentice on a prevailing wage job (which we can thank Unions for), where 2 men stood by the gate just handing out pamphlets. They weren't being aggressive, they weren't being disrespectful, but I didn't even touch the paper he held out to me because I was scared to be seen near them.
Why, now that he's union would he carry this fear, anxiety with him? It's not rational, it's just culture, it's ingrained. We'd could look into the history of labor in the United States to get a better idea as to why this exists because it's really nothing new.
My guess is if he worked at the Nissan plant, he probably would've voted "NO" to the union, too. I get why people vote No, I don't believe all of those that vote "NO" really are anti-union, they're just scared for their jobs, and it's perfectly justifiable, management's anti-union campaigns are very effective, there are law firms, organizations, and books written to focus solely on prevent men and women from organizing. No one person can confront that with any expectation of success.
I'd rep you again if I could (first time I've ever been inclined to say that). Thank you for taking the time and effort to write such a thoughtful post.
There is no magic pot of money the unions use to pay for things.
The unions do not pick up the cost. If you work in the public sector taxpayers are paying your insurance. You get free insurance while a whole group of local residents lose a service or benefit to keep your free insurance going as costs rise.
Why should the taxpayers give you free insurance while they have to pay out of pocket for their own insurance? That seems greedy to me.
No, private unions, like carpenters, electricians, brick laborers, construction workers etc. Unions train them. Why do you think Trump met with all the union leaders. Their employees are skilled and Trump wants infrastructure improved. And that's why he met with the unions. So in order to get the best employees, unions pay them what they are worth and give them the benefits they deserve.
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