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Old 08-04-2017, 09:30 PM
 
44,099 posts, read 34,725,772 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
I disagree respectfully.

The corporations run off to states with Right To Work laws, where wages and benefits are worse. The company I work for started in Chicago, where they paid almost the same as union scale to attract and keep workers...

then after the 'superhighway' system was started they put all of their expansion in small towns in Illinois away from Chicago, cutting the pay by ten to twenty percent. Later they moved into states like Kentucky and paid 70% of what they paid in the small towns of Illinois. Eventually the Chicago plant was shuttered, and many of the older small town plants after that. That is what they mean by Human Resource Management, it's not a service for the employees, it's the science of manipulating people to get the most bang for the buck.

Now that same company is heavily invested in Mexico and China, and has been turning it's back on American cities and towns one after the other. It will turn on the Chinese too if they figure they can move to Bangladesh or Vietnam.

Some people say, "break the Unions" and make the place job friendly, but those jobs do not pay a living wage, the employers make certain of paying as little as possible and don't leave any money on the table. Like I said, it's a science.
Welcome to 2017. Those jobs are being off-shored and only those that are politically connected well enough are protected. Same pressure I'm under in my white collar job. They've been laying people off left and right to be "more efficient".

Unions are a vital source of protection to american workers but now with the tort system and other laws plus the know abuses of the public unions they're really under siege.

Personally, I support private unions but view public unions as nothing more than a political patronage extension where rich pay and benefits are exchanged for political support and are incestuous to responsible governance.
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Old 08-04-2017, 10:40 PM
 
3,560 posts, read 2,672,690 times
Reputation: 3424
They're still necessary to help workers pay keep pace with inflation and/or increases in productivity.

Because America let corporations bust Unions, that's why American worker's pay hasn't kept up. Divide and conquer. A group is more likely to get a raise the Bob over there by himself who can just be fired and replaced with Fred who can just be replaced with John. You can always find someone cheaper.
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Old 08-04-2017, 10:43 PM
 
Location: Texas
27,193 posts, read 14,452,290 times
Reputation: 15724
Lightbulb Opinion on unions

More plus than minus.

Consider this: with the decline of unions since the 80s, we've seen the gross inequity in income skyrocket.

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Old 08-04-2017, 10:43 PM
 
15,543 posts, read 5,951,427 times
Reputation: 4732
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordSquidworth View Post
They're still necessary to help workers pay keep pace with inflation and/or increases in productivity.

Because America let corporations bust Unions, that's why American worker's pay hasn't kept up. Divide and conquer. A group is more likely to get a raise the Bob over there by himself who can just be fired and replaced with Fred who can just be replaced with John. You can always find someone cheaper.
Yeah, you can always find someone cheaper who doesn't have the skills that unions teach. Republicans want to kill unions because they are for the middle class. Republicans are only out for the rich.
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Old 08-04-2017, 11:06 PM
 
1,720 posts, read 290,729 times
Reputation: 858
Union bosses got greedy and did nothing for their members so they contributed to their own demise. Years ago they were less crooked and greedy.
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Old 08-04-2017, 11:09 PM
 
863 posts, read 1,754,706 times
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we need unions. anyone that says otherwise must think those companies give weekends and holidays off out of the goodness of their hearts.


remember not even 60 years ago, companies would kill people for even speaking the word "union"

so i wish people would understand that.
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Old 08-04-2017, 11:29 PM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
26,449 posts, read 16,740,207 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
I have personal experience with unions from my younger days in factory and warehouse work, and I can tell you that working people need representation, I found it invaluable.

The Miners union and the Printing Pressmen's union were two early organizations fighting for the eight hour day. The printers went on strike for it about 1904, the miners earlier. Other unions followed this example and demanded the same from their employers. This was well before Ford's famous action, which may have been partly motivated to keep the unions at bay.

Unions also supported legislation for job safety that protects all workers today. They also historically acted to protect the environment through promoting legislation and supporting like minded politician's. They were battling against the efforts of big money robber barons who resisted all of this. The cry that it would hurt the economy turned out to be an empty threat.

If it weren't for the efforts of labor and trades unions the USA would have an ecology similar to China today, with serious pollution problems and unsafe workplaces. China is chock full of jobs, but they are not good jobs and they do not have effective unions to advocate for the workers or to promote people friendly legislation.

We in the USA owe a lot to our predecessors who fought so hard for the working people through collective bargaining and action.


Both major US political parties support free trade with China (and other low-wage nations) and direct competition between US workers and third-world peasants the world over.


Both major US political parties support effectively open borders by refusing to seal the border, take effective action to eliminate the illegal immigrants that live and work among us or even reduce the number of legal immigrants and guest workers.


Unions blindly supporting Democrats as though nothing has changed since 1972 doesn't do anything to help US workers.


I don't know anyone in my union that didn't vote for Trump because he at least acknowledges the problem of declining wages and may actually do something about it.
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Old 08-05-2017, 04:00 AM
 
Location: N. Ga
3,337 posts, read 2,764,137 times
Reputation: 1745
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post


Unions blindly supporting Democrats as though nothing has changed since 1972 doesn't do anything to help US workers.


I don't know anyone in my union that didn't vote for Trump because he at least acknowledges the problem of declining wages and may actually do something about it.
It's a double edged sword isn't it? Our family is the same way. Third generation union family, who have never worked non-union. But watched the democrat's put our way of life in jeopardy, and nearly starved us this last eight years. And what did the International do? Continue to support and PUSH the democrats this last election. We are thankful for the union, the training, insurance (which is NOT free when you actually understand how it works), and the retirement and other benefits. But at the same time this time the union's only consideration was for the union itself and not for the consideration of its members. It has become the thing that it was designed to stop. A power hungry entity in and of itself.
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Old 08-05-2017, 04:07 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
4,754 posts, read 1,409,136 times
Reputation: 2887
Unions with too much power destroy economies, the power on the unions in Britain in the 1970's was a case in point, when a bunch of communist style leaders tried to bring down Governments through a serious of pointless strikes and who were unwilling to compromise or to adaot modern working practices.

However more moderate unions protecting workers rights including in the boadroom of some countries like Germany can work, and t is good to hae some to represent you and advise you.

As with anything unions are okay but only in moderation and that includes their powers which should also not be excessive or leave them open to corruption.
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Old 08-05-2017, 04:11 AM
Status: "I hike and know things." (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Rutherfordton,NC
9,072 posts, read 6,470,030 times
Reputation: 7135
I've had one experience with unions it wasn't bad nor was it good. Had GREAT benefits one wasn't able to get fired just because your boss or someone you worked with didn't like you. I guess it comes down to those people in the union. The fees weren't too bad and the pay was more then decent but getting a raise was a hellish nightmare.
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