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Old 08-13-2017, 06:06 PM
 
1,101 posts, read 318,826 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilEyeFleegle View Post
I think that there is more to science than infinitely iterated steps to an inescapable conclusion.
That does not describe science AT ALL.
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Old 08-13-2017, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Twin Falls Idaho
4,427 posts, read 1,050,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
That does not describe science AT ALL.
Uh..OK..I guess that is why I put the "I think that there is more to science" part in the sentence?


It is my fanciful was of describing the empirical method--which forms part of the bedrock of the scientific process...But hey.."I'm just an egg, right?"
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Old 08-13-2017, 06:56 PM
 
1,101 posts, read 318,826 times
Reputation: 1011
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilEyeFleegle View Post
Uh..OK..I guess that is why I put the "I think that there is more to science" part in the sentence?


It is my fanciful was of describing the empirical method--which forms part of the bedrock of the scientific process...But hey.."I'm just an egg, right?"
"I think that there is more to science than infinitely iterated steps to an inescapable conclusion."

Your statement implies that most people, or someone, thinks science is "infinitely iterated steps to an inescapable conclusion."

I doubt anyone believes that. So why even say it?
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Old 08-13-2017, 07:07 PM
 
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
20,152 posts, read 7,998,860 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
It's hard to know what gender differences are cultural and which are inborn. But we know the differences are real.
Yes genders have clear differences & they can be readily ascertained by examining sexual organs. But as much as you struggle with this, you have offered nothing to validate your assumptions about gender based behavior or attitudes. And while you might not realize it, you gave us a clue on what shapes your opinion on these matters when you decided to throw in the "liberal/progressive" comment.

The opinions you have offered are clearly based on your perceptions of what you've seen and heard, not any scientific data. There's nothing wrong with opinions as long as we don't pretend that they are something else. Let's just look at one of your claims:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
Women are more interested in love, and less interested in violence.
Of course you will find exceptions all over the place. Please just look at general tendencies. Women are MUCH less interested in violence than men are, or in violent sports.
Really? How did you decide that, was it based on your personal experience, that of your parents or your friends, or by something you read, because the evidence simply does not support your claim.
"One might imagine that lower violent crime rates for women reflects a generally lower level of aggression. Yet, marriage researchers observe the opposite pattern. Women are more likely to pick fights with their husbands, they are quicker to escalate verbal aggression, and are as likely to use physical aggression as men "
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...be-violent-men

"But when subsequent surveys asked who struck first, it turned out that women were as likely as men to initiate violence—a finding confirmed by more than 200 studies of intimate violence."
Hope Solo and the Surprising Truth About Women and Violence | Time.com

"Analyzing data gathered from 11,370 respondents, researchers found that “half of [violent relationships] were reciprocally violent. In non-reciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more that 70% of the cases.” Out of all the respondents, a quarter of the women admitted to perpetrating the domestic violence and, when the violence was reciprocal, women were often the ones to have been the first to strike." Extensive Research: Women Initiate Domestic Violence More than Men, Men Under-report It.

What really would have made you original post interesting would have been a discussion about what led you to have these beliefs.
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Old 08-13-2017, 07:26 PM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
28,779 posts, read 15,608,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
First you need to define masculine and effeminate. If you think my husband is "effeminate" because he cries during movies you're wrong. He's a decorated marine veteran saw more combat than 90% of the posters in these forums, and he's a 3rd degree black belt in Aikido. He's sensitive and kind and if men have to give up those traits to be a "real man" then I would say that is not something to aspire to.

And I'm not masculine in any way. I raised two kids and I'm very involved with my grandkids. Along with the occasional violent movie but I also like to crochet and I'm an excellent home cook. I grew up as an outrageous tomboy, my parent's never worried about it or tried to stuff me into pink frilly dresses, they had enough respect and love for me as a child to let me be what I wanted to be, and guess what..in spite of being tougher and more athletic than at most of the boys I hung out with I didn't "turn gay"

You see, the problem is not with my husband and I being "atypical", it's with people deciding when people are conforming properly and if they aren't then claiming they must be an "outlier", because none of that is really based on science, it's colored by ones own preconceptions and biases. For example, "Most women like soap operas" could simply mean that 51% of women like them and the other 49% prefer to watch John Vick or a Quentin Tarentino movie. As was pointed out by another poster, 45% of the people who watch football are women, so that means that only 55% of men watch. Does that mean that the men who don't watch football aren't "real men" and the women who enjoy it are "bull dykes"

The whole argument is nonsense. People are too complex to try to set norms that you think are appropriate for them. My advice; just live and let live. Don't judge people and decide that "most women aren't good software engineers" or that "most men wouldn't be good at nursing". And if you do that, there's another plus, you won't get fired like the Google dork did for trying to tell his co-workers what women were and were not capable of.
I understand the point you are making. Honestly, I don't think your husband is atypical. He sounds like a good man. No one is saying a tough man cannot show emotions.

My brother's a former Recon Marine. He's also a good artist. I am not sure he'd cry during movies, but he's also a very kind, loving, giving, sensitive man. He is certainly a very tough man.

This said, I believe our mind is somewhat like a computer, so it knows only what you feed in it and works as per your past observations about yourself and completely on your beliefs, so until and unless you feed it with your acts of courage/confidence, it will never know what they mean and you need to keep testing your limits to know how far you can go. Start with small things/fears and who knows one day you might scare away all your fears!

When my bro was in the Marine Corps, they had something called gold wing pinning ceremony for the gold wingers. Now, it is considered hazing. I think it has a lot to do with political correctness.

Equality of Opportunity Does Not Mean Equality of Results. I expected Boot camp to be rough. I expected the Recon training to be a hell and near death experience. Its an initiation into a superior fighting force and it should be tough,hard and designed to weed out the sick lame and lazy.
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Old 08-13-2017, 07:37 PM
 
1,101 posts, read 318,826 times
Reputation: 1011
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post

What really would have made you original post interesting would have been a discussion about what led you to have these beliefs.
I never WANTED to think women are different from men. I don't think women are any less intelligent or talented or motivated, than men.

The reason I think women are different from men is countless observations.

I worked as a website software developer for 20+ years. Almost all the web developers I ever worked with were men, mostly young.

We CAN make generalizations based on LOTS of observations.

I have observed people all my life, 65 years, and I have noticed patterns.

I would LIKE to meet a woman who does NOT fit the stereotypes, but so far I have hardly met any.

I have known a lot of people, having lived this long. I know what subjects women are more likely to talk about -- food, health, children, pets.

One interest that both genders seem to share is music (which is my hobby). However, men and women generally play different instruments. This is a fact, which you can easily check by watching youtube videos. Strangely, women often play acoustic bass, which is the biggest instrument, and probably requires the strongest hands. I have no idea why this is true, but it is. Yes, lots of men play acoustic bass, but there are a surprising number of women.

I have not claimed the difference are innate, rather than cultural. We really don't know.

One way to verify that there are differences is trying to guess the sex of posters at online forums, like this one. Sometimes the names give it away though.
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
20,152 posts, read 7,998,860 times
Reputation: 14933
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
I understand the point you are making. Honestly, I don't think your husband is atypical. He sounds like a good man. No one is saying a tough man cannot show emotions.
He is a good man and I only mentioned him to try to get the OP to understand that her 'theories' about gender behavior are just not valid, she responded that he is an "outlier" because in her opinion men don't cry during movies. I get what you are saying and I completely agree.
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
28,779 posts, read 15,608,756 times
Reputation: 11203
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
He is a good man and I only mentioned him to try to get the OP to understand that her 'theories' about gender behavior are just not valid, she responded that he is an "outlier" because in her opinion men don't cry during movies. I get what you are saying and I completely agree.
Oh thank you!
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:43 PM
 
1,460 posts, read 338,390 times
Reputation: 776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
It is possible to make careful observations. The observations people make don't have to be random and they don't have to stand alone. Whoever said that?
It doesn't matter what observation you are making, it's not a scientific observation.

Quote:
Sure, let's stop thinking and observing and let the Scientists tell us what is true. We can't trust ourselves. Heaven forbid, we might believe in God if we start ignoring Richard Dawkins.
Nobody is telling you to stop observing. Nobody is telling you to do anything. YOU are the one who chose to bring science in as a rubric and make charges about who knows what about science this and science that. I have pointed out that you are wrong and why. That doesn't mean I'm demanding that you don't use your eyeballs to look around and talk to your heart's content.

Quote:
Let the experts do our thinking. Never dare to doubt them.
What does this even mean? Your are talking out of both sides of your mouth while running in opposite directions. If you want to trail off into your la la land of chem trails go ahead. You just don't get to call it science and you don't get to tell people their own thoughts are wrong due to their not understanding science without question.

Quote:
You cited one study that found no difference between genders, ignoring decades of gender difference research. One psychologist decided that there are no big differences, and you accept that as fact because of its political "correctness."
Decades of god knows what. None of it has any value if the tenets of a position can be so easily turned on its head.

Quote:
Even if there were no genetically determined differences, it is impossible to deny cultural learned differences.
That's one thing we can agree on.

Quote:
But there obviously are biologically determined differences also. Women and men do not have the same hormones. And females give birth and usually have more of the responsibility for taking care of children.

It is also perfectly obvious that males and females, in our culture, tend to have different interests. I can easily think of examples within the past 24 hours -- I visited friends and the wife was making an embroidery for her grandchild, while the husband was talking about cars.

You have to be in your own politically correct world to not observe these things.
Observing these things is one thing. Assigning explanations or causal factors is another.

If I show each woman on this forum a brown ball, a green ball, and a black ball and ask each to choose their favorite color of the three and most choose green does that mean women prefer green? Can I conclude and subsequently extrapolate onto the population, that women, by and large, prefer green of all possible color shades in the rainbow? You need to employ a little bit of critical thinking. Our preferences are tailored by exposure and availability, to state the obvious.

Quote:
Maybe it's in style now to pretend you are genderless. Some people are relatively genderless, but EVERYONE KNOWS most are not.
I am not asserting that either. There are two sexes and they are different, but just because they are different does not mean we know how or why and what impact that may have on behavior.

Quote:
I know A LOT more women than men who love cats. I know A LOT more women who sew or do some kind of needlework. I know A LOT more men who love cars, or guns, or sports.
I know more men who love cats. My best girl friend is all dogs. My husband is all cats. What difference does it make? That you don't know women into sports...so?

Quote:
It is NOT unscientific to notice reality, even if it is not politically "correct."
I'm not sure what your point is here. None of this is about science.

Quote:
It's hard to know what gender differences are cultural and which are inborn. But we know the differences are real.
We do know some things. There are sex differences, as noted i this thread. Women carry babies and give birth. Women can sustain that life with their bodies. We know that the sexes differ in muscle mass, sex hormones, chromosomes. None of that is cultural.

Last edited by Cassy Fae; 08-13-2017 at 08:58 PM..
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
20,152 posts, read 7,998,860 times
Reputation: 14933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
I never WANTED to think women are different from men. I don't think women are any less intelligent or talented or motivated, than men.
The reason I think women are different from men is countless observations.
You clearly said that "women are more interested in love, and less interested in violence." your observations were wrong. I linked three unbiased reputable studies that contradict your claim.

Whether you worked as a software engineer for 20 years for 40, your workplace experience is too limited and involves too small of a sample for you to be able to make any generalizations either about men, or about software developers. It's sort of like drug testing, if you have 10 people try a drug and 1 gets sicker and 8 get better, do you publish the success of your drug based on the experience of 10 people?

I'm 70 so I've been observing things for 5 years longer than you, and you know what I learned? Not to generalize about human behavior or decide what behaviors are specific to a gender, a race, ethnicity, or political affiliation because when you do that you just leave the door wide open for people to prove you're dead wrong.
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